Steve9347 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 02:49 PM) https://twitter.com/bulls_jay/status/834867249232109568 Don't click on this link if you wanted the Nets picks That's honestly it for me with the Bulls for a long while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 04:20 PM) Are you still going to be arguing this same position at this time next year or the year after? Because we're going to be in virtually the same position. You can argue your trade values all you want but holding onto Jimmy just because you have a perceived value on him that nobody can reach is the way to keep the Bulls where they are. Nobody is guaranteeing anything with these picks(though a lot of us certainly love some of these players) but eventually you have to take a chance because I do guarantee you they wont be a championship contender with Jimmy in his 'prime' here. This. Superstar trades don't net two top 5 picks because contenders never have those assets to offer. This is like saying the Sox shouldn't trade Sale for Moncada and Kopech because prospects bust sometimes... The good news is the Celtics didn't make a move. In theory, the two picks could be there this offseason with someone other than GarPax pulling the trigger (crosses fingers and wishes very, very hard). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 01:03 PM) I didnt say "only" but if those 2 picks were on the table and the Bulls said no, there is unlikely no offer out there that can get Butler. Obviously lottery makes things harder, but those 2 picks are likely at worst 2 top 5, and possibly both would turn out into top 3. So was it both Nets picks that were on the table (I can't read twitter)? I think I said yesterday that to me fair value was Brown and the two Nets picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 03:29 PM) So was it both Nets picks that were on the table (I can't read twitter)? I think I said yesterday that to me fair value was Brown and the two Nets picks. The tweet claimed it was both Nets picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 03:20 PM) Are you still going to be arguing this same position at this time next year or the year after? Because we're going to be in virtually the same position. You can argue your trade values all you want but holding onto Jimmy just because you have a perceived value on him that nobody can reach is the way to keep the Bulls where they are. Nobody is guaranteeing anything with these picks(though a lot of us certainly love some of these players) but eventually you have to take a chance because I do guarantee you they wont be a championship contender with Jimmy in his 'prime' here. Newsflash: no team is contending while Lebron still walks and the Warriors still rain threes. The ONLY chance the Bulls have to compete for a Finals spot is to build around their superstar, not build from scratch through the draft. I again ask how has Denver, Minnesota, Sacramento, Philly, etc done after obtaining big hauls for superstars or retaining good draft picks and assets? Shoot, even Boston now. They're not winning anything because they don't have a superstar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 04:01 PM) Newsflash: no team is contending while Lebron still walks and the Warriors still rain threes. The ONLY chance the Bulls have to compete for a Finals spot is to build around their superstar, not build from scratch through the draft. I again ask how has Denver, Minnesota, Sacramento, Philly, etc done after obtaining big hauls for superstars or retaining good draft picks and assets? Shoot, even Boston now. They're not winning anything because they don't have a superstar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 If we cryogenically froze Jimmy for 3 years and tanked I could support that plan. Unsure how long it would take for his eyes to get back though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 04:05 PM) You guys are delusional if you think 2 top 5 picks is some kind of guarantee. Next year's draft is supposed to be pretty good, but what about 2018? What if you get stuck choosing between Anthony Bennett and Victor Oladipo? If it's 2 picks plus Brown and some scrap, I would consider that. Just picks? Hellllllllllllll no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 04:08 PM) You guys are delusional if you think 2 top 5 picks is some kind of guarantee. Next year's draft is supposed to be pretty good, but what about 2018? What if you get stuck choosing between Anthony Bennett and Victor Oladipo? If it's 2 picks plus Brown and some scrap, I would consider that. Just picks? Hellllllllllllll no. Not one person has guaranteed anything about those picks. I have guaranteed this team isn't winning a damn thing the next few years with Jimmy here though. You're delusional(to use your term) if you think this team is going to be a contender with Jimmy these next 3 years. And you're absolutely delusional if you think Jimmy is a superstar on the same level of guys who lead their teams to championships like you keep insinuating. Dude is a great player but he's not leading this team to a championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 The problem is that either way they are depending on luck. If they keep Butler they need to get lucky and hit on a FA or guy later in the draft. If they trade Butler than they have to hit on a player who is at least as good as Butler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 It's cool, maybe we can turn back the clock and go this route again! 2001-2005, the golden years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 04:15 PM) Not one person has guaranteed anything about those picks. I have guaranteed this team isn't winning a damn thing the next few years with Jimmy here though. You're delusional(to use your term) if you think this team is going to be a contender with Jimmy these next 3 years. And you're absolutely delusional if you think Jimmy is a superstar on the same level of guys who lead their teams to championships like you keep insinuating. Dude is a great player but he's not leading this team to a championship. s***, they're a few games from being out of the playoffs (after missing them last year) in the east with Butler. Like I said, AT BEST the 5th best player at his own position. Great player. But GMAB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 04:15 PM) Not one person has guaranteed anything about those picks. I have guaranteed this team isn't winning a damn thing the next few years with Jimmy here though. You're delusional(to use your term) if you think this team is going to be a contender with Jimmy these next 3 years. And you're absolutely delusional if you think Jimmy is a superstar on the same level of guys who lead their teams to championships like you keep insinuating. Dude is a great player but he's not leading this team to a championship. That's such a myth. No one does that, not even Lebron, the best player on the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 05:08 PM) You guys are delusional if you think 2 top 5 picks is some kind of guarantee. Next year's draft is supposed to be pretty good, but what about 2018? What if you get stuck choosing between Anthony Bennett and Victor Oladipo? If it's 2 picks plus Brown and some scrap, I would consider that. Just picks? Hellllllllllllll no. First, it can't be just picks because of salaries in the trade. Second, you yourself just said that there's no point in chasing a title while Lebron is around. Third, if the Bulls continue to not lure a superstar FA, fail in the draft (much harder to hit in the mid-teens), and not succeed with other team's castoffs, then what is your path to either (a) contending with Butler or (b) convincing Butler to re-sign when his deal is up? Fourth, if you have no path to winning a title with Butler, then you have to build a core through the draft. Starting with a top 4 pick in '17 and what would probably be two top 5 picks in '18 would really jump start that process. The worst place to be in the NBA is a 6-8 seed with no good young players, and no viable path to a conference championship series, let alone the Finals. No one here has said it's a guarantee - just like no one in PHT is saying Mocada and Kopech are a guarantee - but there's a better shot of contending eventually through a rebuild with a bunch of top 5 picks than there is by building around Butler for the next three years with no other good assets of note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 04:17 PM) The problem is that either way they are depending on luck. If they keep Butler they need to get lucky and hit on a FA or guy later in the draft. If they trade Butler than they have to hit on a player who is at least as good as Butler. Hey, I totally agree. It's a gamble. But IMO the odds are better building around him. And shoot, give it another season and if you fail getting any decent FA, trade him next year. You'd still get a good haul for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Alright, face palm for real now. I'll leave this conversation on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 05:17 PM) It's cool, maybe we can turn back the clock and go this route again! 2001-2005, the golden years! Yep, because it's guaranteed to fail again (leaving aside the difference between drafting kids right out of high school and when they have to spend a year in college). Butler's closest title winning comp in our lifetime is probably Paul Pierce? So first, is Butler as loyal as Pierce was where he will go through years of mediocrity and stay in Chicago? And second, where are the Bulls getting Garnett and Allen (not to mention Rondo) from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 05:20 PM) Hey, I totally agree. It's a gamble. But IMO the odds are better building around him. And shoot, give it another season and if you fail getting any decent FA, trade him next year. You'd still get a good haul for him. Jenks, the point is that it's historically difficult to get close to equivalent value for a star in NBA trades. There are no farm systems, so there aren't really prospects to move. And good teams usually don't have a slew of top-5 picks to move. If you trade Butler this offseason, the Nets' picks are still there. But if you wait until the next year, the '17 asset is off the board. There's a huge opportunity cost to waiting beyond the draft next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 02:08 PM) You guys are delusional if you think 2 top 5 picks is some kind of guarantee. Next year's draft is supposed to be pretty good, but what about 2018? What if you get stuck choosing between Anthony Bennett and Victor Oladipo? If it's 2 picks plus Brown and some scrap, I would consider that. Just picks? Hellllllllllllll no. I am with you...I want three things. Bust rate is too high for me to do it for anything less. Brown and the two picks and I'm leery but willing. Two picks alone...for all we know you could be talking about the 5th and the 5th pick...if that were to happen and we didn't get anything special, it could go down as a total trash trade. Now if Boston has the #1 pick post-lottery, then I think you'll see the Bulls willing to talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Bulls had the misfortune of picking high in some historically awful drafts, but overall as you look back, Krause did about as good a job as you can of collecting valuable assets, he just could not swing them for a star. Ended up with jalen rose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 02:29 PM) Bulls had the misfortune of picking high in some historically awful drafts, but overall as you look back, Krause did about as good a job as you can of collecting valuable assets, he just could not swing them for a star. Ended up with jalen rose. Look over the past few years...not many teams have just blown up because they were bad/tanked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 04:22 PM) Yep, because it's guaranteed to fail again (leaving aside the difference between drafting kids right out of high school and when they have to spend a year in college). Butler's closest title winning comp in our lifetime is probably Paul Pierce? So first, is Butler as loyal as Pierce was where he will go through years of mediocrity and stay in Chicago? And second, where are the Bulls getting Garnett and Allen (not to mention Rondo) from? It's the Bulls man, that's the problem. It absolutely could, and probably, will happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 05:30 PM) It's the Bulls man, that's the problem. It absolutely could, and probably, will happen again. If we don't trust the Bulls to draft, why do we trust them to surround Butler with talent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 04:30 PM) It's the Bulls man, that's the problem. It absolutely could, and probably, will happen again. In this teams 50 year history, they have been able to build around one superstar. One. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 23, 2017 -> 05:29 PM) Bulls had the misfortune of picking high in some historically awful drafts, but overall as you look back, Krause did about as good a job as you can of collecting valuable assets, he just could not swing them for a star. Ended up with jalen rose. The most annoying part is if he trades Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall and doesn't let those guys win the Bulls some extra games in 2002-2003 you are looking at maybe getting LeBron, Bosh , Anthony or Wade in the 2003 draft instead of f***ing Kirk Hinrich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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