2016-2017 NBA Thread

[Steve9347]

Because there's no feasible plan to win championships building around Jimmy Butler. I'm all ears though. There are 6 banners in that building and 1998 was a long ass time ago. Surprised Bulls fans are as happy as they are to be a "playoff team".

I'm not happy to be a playoff team, but it's a lot harder to get the three All-Stars you need to compete for a title starting with 0 instead of with 1.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I'm not happy to be a playoff team, but it's a lot harder to get the three All-Stars you need to compete for a title starting with 0 instead of with 1.

 

 

That's fair and I understand your point. I disagree though. With the new CBA, young stars (Cousins) and potential guys (Davis, Jabari Parker, etc) will just stay with their teams because of the gobs of money that they can be offered. Jimmy keeps you competitive which never allows to cash in at the top of the lottery. If you don't have high draft picks, and can't sign really good free agents, I ask you again, How do they ever build a championship team around Jimmy Butler?

[Steve9347]

That's fair and I understand your point. I disagree though. With the new CBA, young stars (Cousins) and potential guys (Davis, Jabari Parker, etc) will just stay with their teams because of the gobs of money that they can be offered. Jimmy keeps you competitive which never allows to cash in at the top of the lottery. If you don't have high draft picks, and can't sign really good free agents, I ask you again, How do they ever build a championship team around Jimmy Butler?

The Kings have been tanking for a decade and haven't done squat with it. The Bucks have been complete garbage for a decade and are only starting to reap the benefits now.

 

For every example you have of teams that have to build through the draft there are examples of teams who stockpile mid-round picks and strike when the iron is hot. I have no doubt the Lakers will be fantastic again in a few years by keeping a guy or two and then offloading other guys at the right time.

 

The Bulls NEVER improve through trade, which is what they need to do. They need to not fall in love with their s*** drafted talent and make moves while the league still believes in them. Instead, we sit on these guys and they're out of the league. It's been a while since the Bulls hit on a draft pick. While Jimmy will go down as an all-timer, here are their picks since then.

 

Denzel Valentine (can't crack the lineup)

Paul Zipser (starting to show something)

Bobby Portis (still finding time in D league)

Jusuf Nurkic and Gary Harris (dealt away, the two best players on this list selected by Denver, NOT Chicago)

Cameron Bairstow (out of the league)

Tony Snell (worthless in Milwaukee and ugly)

Erik Murphy (out of the league)

Marquis Teague (out of the league)

Norris Cole (out of the league)

 

Not a great run here. It's hard to improve your team and build around stars when you don't have enough interesting pieces to deal for them. Stars come available often, the Bulls just never deal for them. This is the same team that refused to include Tyrus Thomas in a deal for peak Pau Gasol.

[Steve9347]

You're not trying to land a Jimmy Butler, you're trying to land someone that can be the number 1 guy on a championship team. Jimmy is absolutely great but he's never going to be the number 1 on a championship team and we're not landing LeBron or Harden or Russ or Steph or whoever to make winning a championship "around him" feasible.

I actually must take back my refusal to deal Jimmy. Superstars normally don't net a proper return, but a deal with Boston could do just that. If we can get their two picks from the Nets and some combination of these guys -Jae Crowder, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart, Ante Zizic, well, that's one you roll with as you may be able to hit paydirt with either of those picks. Hell, this coming draft could wind up being the 1 overall.

 

That gives the Celtics IT2, Al Horford, Jimmy, Bradley to roll deep into the East with.

 

Ok, trade Jimmy to the Celtics!

[Jenksismyhero]

The Kings have been tanking for a decade and haven't done squat with it. The Bucks have been complete garbage for a decade and are only starting to reap the benefits now.

 

For every example you have of teams that have to build through the draft there are examples of teams who stockpile mid-round picks and strike when the iron is hot. I have no doubt the Lakers will be fantastic again in a few years by keeping a guy or two and then offloading other guys at the right time.

 

The Bulls NEVER improve through trade, which is what they need to do. They need to not fall in love with their s*** drafted talent and make moves while the league still believes in them. Instead, we sit on these guys and they're out of the league. It's been a while since the Bulls hit on a draft pick. While Jimmy will go down as an all-timer, here are their picks since then.

 

Denzel Valentine (can't crack the lineup)

Paul Zipser (starting to show something)

Bobby Portis (still finding time in D league)

Jusuf Nurkic and Gary Harris (dealt away, the two best players on this list selected by Denver, NOT Chicago)

Cameron Bairstow (out of the league)

Tony Snell (worthless in Milwaukee and ugly)

Erik Murphy (out of the league)

Marquis Teague (out of the league)

Norris Cole (out of the league)

 

Not a great run here. It's hard to improve your team and build around stars when you don't have enough interesting pieces to deal for them. Stars come available often, the Bulls just never deal for them. This is the same team that refused to include Tyrus Thomas in a deal for peak Pau Gasol.

 

Totally agree. I'd rather get pick 14 with Jimmy on the team than draft 6-7 without Jimmy. The better avenue for the Bulls is to add players in FA, not the draft.

[Rowand44]

I actually deleted my post because I said I wouldn't argue this anymore this season ha. Everyone's entitled to their opinion on this obviously and not sure why I feel the need to keep arguing about it.

[joejoedairy]

Also from Mike & Mike:

 

They were saying on Mike and Mike that one of the reason that the front office didn't like Thibs and Jimmy is that they tried to screw him on his previous contract and told him if he didn't sign his smaller restricted option they would give his minutes to Jimmy Snell and limit his stats so he didn't get a max deal. And that Thibs said no way and played Jimmy anyway. If that's true that is wrong on so many levels and it's no surprise that they never get free agents to come.

 

I got the above third party and will try to verify.

 

Ryen Russillo said the same thing on his show Friday

[Jenksismyhero]

I actually must take back my refusal to deal Jimmy. Superstars normally don't net a proper return, but a deal with Boston could do just that. If we can get their two picks from the Nets and some combination of these guys -Jae Crowder, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart, Ante Zizic, well, that's one you roll with as you may be able to hit paydirt with either of those picks. Hell, this coming draft could wind up being the 1 overall.

 

That gives the Celtics IT2, Al Horford, Jimmy, Bradley to roll deep into the East with.

 

Ok, trade Jimmy to the Celtics!

 

I don't think the Celtics are in must-trade mode though, that's the problem. They're good now and will only get better as they add these high lottery picks. If the Bulls couldn't get Wiggins + a 1st round pick from Minn, I don't see them getting 2 starters plus a #1-3 pick.

Edited January 31, 2017 by JenksIsMyHero

[Balta1701]

Totally agree. I'd rather get pick 14 with Jimmy on the team than draft 6-7 without Jimmy. The better avenue for the Bulls is to add players in FA, not the draft.

Even if we ignore the Bulls' history in landing FAs, this still doesn't deal with that huge change in the CBA from this year. Are you ok adding players in FA if anyone at Cousins's level and above never leaves their team again because they opened up the floodgates for those top players?

[Kyyle23]

I actually must take back my refusal to deal Jimmy. Superstars normally don't net a proper return, but a deal with Boston could do just that. If we can get their two picks from the Nets and some combination of these guys -Jae Crowder, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart, Ante Zizic, well, that's one you roll with as you may be able to hit paydirt with either of those picks. Hell, this coming draft could wind up being the 1 overall.

 

That gives the Celtics IT2, Al Horford, Jimmy, Bradley to roll deep into the East with.

 

Ok, trade Jimmy to the Celtics!

 

Pretty sure Celtics can't trade their pick because that would be three straight seasons of trading their 1st round pick

[Steve9347]

Pretty sure Celtics can't trade their pick because that would be three straight seasons of trading their 1st round pick

It's not their pick. It's a Nets pick that's already been dealt and can be dealt again. I have no interest in the Celtics' pick.

[Jenksismyhero]

Even if we ignore the Bulls' history in landing FAs, this still doesn't deal with that huge change in the CBA from this year. Are you ok adding players in FA if anyone at Cousins's level and above never leaves their team again because they opened up the floodgates for those top players?

 

It makes the top tier guys more difficult to sign, but I still think it's doable. A major market team like the Lakes, Knicks and Bulls can make up a lot of the difference in salary lost with endorsements/exposure.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Totally agree. I'd rather get pick 14 with Jimmy on the team than draft 6-7 without Jimmy. The better avenue for the Bulls is to add players in FA, not the draft.

 

 

Jenks, you are the exact fan I was talking about man. You really are content being the 6th seed in the East, huh? That's your prerogative but as a sports fan, I want my team to do everything they can to win championships. This plan is not that.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Pretty sure Celtics can't trade their pick because that would be three straight seasons of trading their 1st round pick

 

 

Celtics had their own first last year and used it on Zizic. Bulls would need to acquire Celtics 2017 1st round pick. Then they flop that pick with Brooklyn for Brooklyn's 1st after the lottery is announced. Bulls would end up with their own pick and Brooklyn's pick. Brooklyn would get Boston's 1st. Then the Bulls would also acquire Brooklyn's 2018 1st that Boston currently owns.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Even if we ignore the Bulls' history in landing FAs, this still doesn't deal with that huge change in the CBA from this year. Are you ok adding players in FA if anyone at Cousins's level and above never leaves their team again because they opened up the floodgates for those top players?

 

 

This is the point I've been trying to make. Guys that we could target years out will not be hitting free agency anymore. When a guy like DeMarcus Cousins would rather take $207 million to stay in Sacramento, I think that's a solid indicator of things to come.

[Jenksismyhero]

Jenks, you are the exact fan I was talking about man. You really are content being the 6th seed in the East, huh? That's your prerogative but as a sports fan, I want my team to do everything they can to win championships. This plan is not that.

 

I'm not but i'm also realistic. How many lottery picks pan out? How many become all-stars? How many become starters in the all-star game? History has proven that the "hauls" you get for superstar players rarely pan out. Denver traded Carmelo for a king's ransom according to all the experts and what have they gotten out of it? Minnesota received a haul for Garnett, including two first round picks, and did what with it? Granted you have the Kahn effect, but drafting Flynn and Rubio at 5 and 6 just proves top 10 picks don't always become good players.

 

Butler gives you a name. Butler gives you some credibility with FA's. He's on a cheap deal. If anything the best play is to give it a go next year without the likes of Rondo and maybe you get lucky and Wade can convince someone like Chris Paul to come and play. The Bulls would have to overpay him, but Wade/Butler/Paul gives you a good enough 3 to seriously compete for a Finals spot. If Paul/Wade prove to be too old/ineffective, trade everyone at that point. You've got 3 full seasons after this one with Butler. No pressure to trade him right away.

[Chisoxfn]

Ryen Russillo said the same thing on his show Friday

Ryen Russillo said it on a podcast...so anything else coming from this comes from one report from Ryan Russillo. Actions speak louder then words though and the reality is Butler never got benched / kicked to the curb. I'll be honest, I kind of assume this happens often when teams negotiate with other guys.

 

When I think of the Bulls, I kind of think of the Lakers with Kobe (not comparing Butler to Kobe) and think about how close the Lakers were to moving Kobe and going full on rebuild. Instead, they hovered around and eventually got Pau and went on to win a couple more championships. Kobe is/was far more elite than Butler can ever dream (although I think Kobe's leadership style and Butlers are very similar...meaning they are tough love guys who expect everyone to work their tails off and do everything for win). In fact, I'd argue that Taj is the "good cop" to Butler's "bad cop" ala Fisher / Kobe. Lakers clearly had more talent, but that was a team that didn't give up when it could have and eventually got the pieces and won titles.

 

Not saying Bulls are winning a title if we landed another superstar, but we'd be a hell of a lot closer and I'd rather be a piece away then 3 pieces away. Of course, I've also said, if we could get both nets picks plus Crowder & Smart (and maybe even one more 1st round pick), I'd do it. I'd want an absolute haul to move Jimmy Buckets.

[Balta1701]

Ryen Russillo said it on a podcast...so anything else coming from this comes from one report from Ryan Russillo. Actions speak louder then words though and the reality is Butler never got benched / kicked to the curb. I'll be honest, I kind of assume this happens often when teams negotiate with other guys.

 

When I think of the Bulls, I kind of think of the Lakers with Kobe (not comparing Butler to Kobe) and think about how close the Lakers were to moving Kobe and going full on rebuild. Instead, they hovered around and eventually got Pau and went on to win a couple more championships. Kobe is/was far more elite than Butler can ever dream (although I think Kobe's leadership style and Butlers are very similar...meaning they are tough love guys who expect everyone to work their tails off and do everything for win). In fact, I'd argue that Taj is the "good cop" to Butler's "bad cop" ala Fisher / Kobe. Lakers clearly had more talent, but that was a team that didn't give up when it could have and eventually got the pieces and won titles.

 

Not saying Bulls are winning a title if we landed another superstar, but we'd be a hell of a lot closer and I'd rather be a piece away then 3 pieces away. Of course, I've also said, if we could get both nets picks plus Crowder & Smart (and maybe even one more 1st round pick), I'd do it. I'd want an absolute haul to move Jimmy Buckets.

If this is the logic, then we need to no longer see complaints about finishing 7-8 in the East, because that's where the Lakers were during the years they sat there waiting for someone to bail them out.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I'm not but i'm also realistic. How many lottery picks pan out? How many become all-stars? How many become starters in the all-star game? History has proven that the "hauls" you get for superstar players rarely pan out. Denver traded Carmelo for a king's ransom according to all the experts and what have they gotten out of it? Minnesota received a haul for Garnett, including two first round picks, and did what with it? Granted you have the Kahn effect, but drafting Flynn and Rubio at 5 and 6 just proves top 10 picks don't always become good players.

 

Butler gives you a name. Butler gives you some credibility with FA's. He's on a cheap deal. If anything the best play is to give it a go next year without the likes of Rondo and maybe you get lucky and Wade can convince someone like Chris Paul to come and play. The Bulls would have to overpay him, but Wade/Butler/Paul gives you a good enough 3 to seriously compete for a Finals spot. If Paul/Wade prove to be too old/ineffective, trade everyone at that point. You've got 3 full seasons after this one with Butler. No pressure to trade him right away.

 

 

I think if you get 2 lottery picks in this upcoming draft, you have a much better chance of future success than building a team around Jimmy Butler. Nets pick should be top 3. Go look at that list. Some game-changing PGs at the top. I'll take my chances.

[Chisoxfn]

Even if we ignore the Bulls' history in landing FAs, this still doesn't deal with that huge change in the CBA from this year. Are you ok adding players in FA if anyone at Cousins's level and above never leaves their team again because they opened up the floodgates for those top players?

I agree with you...you won't be able to sign big name FA's whose team has full bird rights. The key now will be a combination of trades / drafts, imo, with free agency more of supplement move. Of course we could all be wrong, but with the new CBA, not many guys who are eligible for the max deals are going to turn those deals down.

 

That said, I believe all of the below players could net us a combination of picks (with at least one being a first rounder):

 

Butler (obvioulsy)

Wade (need salaries to match but I think a contender who had expiring's would be all over that move...wouldn't be a high pick).

Taj (I think he'd be one of the best players on the market for a contender in need of a rim protector)

Lopez (see above...would be a very nice piece for any contender and his contract is attractive too)

 

 

Guys I'm not sure about:

Niko (who knows...someone might think they could do something with him...albeit, he's a free agent...need him to get hot before now and the deadline)

Doug (no idea...for a team that needs someone to spread the floor he might be an option...probably better to retain)

Rondo (probably nothing...albeit if he keeps playing well off the bench, that could change).

 

[Chisoxfn]

Jenks, you are the exact fan I was talking about man. You really are content being the 6th seed in the East, huh? That's your prerogative but as a sports fan, I want my team to do everything they can to win championships. This plan is not that.

I'm not speaking for Jenks, but I view sports as entertainment...so while championships are nice and obviously the ultimate goal, what I want is a team that is entertaining and can contend. I like being in the post-season and having a chance and at least being a piece away. Now I'm not saying this team is overly entertaining, cause they aren't, nor am I saying they are a piece away, cause they aren't (unless that piece would be King James or some other super elite player). But in general, I'd call what the Bulls did for the last ten years, largely successful and I can think back on many entertaining moments watching the Bulls recent runs (last year / this year...not so much, but even then I remember how bad it was post Jordan and even after all that bottoming out, the only time we were close to winning a title is when we got lucky with Rose coming).

 

When I contrast that to the White Sox and Bears and I largely don't have many nice things to say or positive sports memories looking back over the last 5 years. In fact, last time I had any real entertainment was with the Bears during the Lovie era and in all honesty, the Sox was the Ozzie era (outside of last years hot start and year 1 of Ventura being a pleasant surprise).

[Chisoxfn]

This is the point I've been trying to make. Guys that we could target years out will not be hitting free agency anymore. When a guy like DeMarcus Cousins would rather take $207 million to stay in Sacramento, I think that's a solid indicator of things to come.

Instead, I think we will see superstars force their way out of places via trade (and in enough time so that the acquiring team can give them the big extensions). That way they get to their destination and get the mega contract.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I'm not but i'm also realistic. How many lottery picks pan out? How many become all-stars? How many become starters in the all-star game? History has proven that the "hauls" you get for superstar players rarely pan out. Denver traded Carmelo for a king's ransom according to all the experts and what have they gotten out of it? Minnesota received a haul for Garnett, including two first round picks, and did what with it? Granted you have the Kahn effect, but drafting Flynn and Rubio at 5 and 6 just proves top 10 picks don't always become good players.

 

Butler gives you a name. Butler gives you some credibility with FA's. He's on a cheap deal. If anything the best play is to give it a go next year without the likes of Rondo and maybe you get lucky and Wade can convince someone like Chris Paul to come and play. The Bulls would have to overpay him, but Wade/Butler/Paul gives you a good enough 3 to seriously compete for a Finals spot. If Paul/Wade prove to be too old/ineffective, trade everyone at that point. You've got 3 full seasons after this one with Butler. No pressure to trade him right away.

 

 

So the plan for next year is to return Wade and Butler and pray that someone comes to play with Wade in Chicago on a 1 year deal? Is Hoiberg coaching? Is Forman the GM? I know I'm being difficult but I truly believe blowing this thing to smithereens is the only play here unless it truly is about selling bobble heads and concessions again and in that case, f*** it. Go get Carmelo, sell out the UC and bow out in the 2nd round of the playoffs while pushing back the future another 3-4 years.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I'm not speaking for Jenks, but I view sports as entertainment...so while championships are nice and obviously the ultimate goal, what I want is a team that is entertaining and can contend. I like being in the post-season and having a chance and at least being a piece away. Now I'm not saying this team is overly entertaining, cause they aren't, nor am I saying they are a piece away, cause they aren't (unless that piece would be King James or some other super elite player). But in general, I'd call what the Bulls did for the last ten years, largely successful and I can think back on many entertaining moments watching the Bulls recent runs (last year / this year...not so much, but even then I remember how bad it was post Jordan and even after all that bottoming out, the only time we were close to winning a title is when we got lucky with Rose coming).

 

When I contrast that to the White Sox and Bears and I largely don't have many nice things to say or positive sports memories looking back over the last 5 years. In fact, last time I had any real entertainment was with the Bears during the Lovie era and in all honesty, the Sox was the Ozzie era (outside of last years hot start and year 1 of Ventura being a pleasant surprise).

 

 

In the other sports, I agree with you. In the NBA, it's much different. The White Sox and Bears in a much better position to win a championship than the Bulls are because of the nature of their sports. If i'm holding them to my "make the best decisions to eventually win a championship" viewpoint, then I can't settle for being a consistent playoff team. In the NFL and MLB there are many factors and teams can make shrewd decisions and compete with rest of the league almost instantly. In the NBA, there are like 3-4 title contenders. The worst place to be is where the Bulls are. Everyone made fun of the 76ers but any smart Bulls fan would trade places with them in a second right now.

[Rowand44]

In the other sports, I agree with you. In the NBA, it's much different. The White Sox and Bears in a much better position to win a championship than the Bulls are because of the nature of their sports. If i'm holding them to my "make the best decisions to eventually win a championship" viewpoint, then I can't settle for being a consistent playoff team. In the NFL and MLB there are many factors and teams can make shrewd decisions and compete with rest of the league almost instantly. In the NBA, there are like 3-4 title contenders. The worst place to be is where the Bulls are. Everyone made fun of the 76ers but any smart Bulls fan would trade places with them in a second right now.

I'm with you on this one and this is probably the biggest disconnect overall between Jason and me in this thread. I have a hard time enjoying my team if I know they have 0 shot to win the championship. That includes the playoffs in the NBA. In other sports you can luck your way into a championship and in the NBA you can't, it changes how I enjoy things. Obviously nobody is right or wrong here but that's personally how my entertainment value is shaped.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Rowand44