2016-2017 NBA Thread

[Chisoxfn]

In the other sports, I agree with you. In the NBA, it's much different. The White Sox and Bears in a much better position to win a championship than the Bulls are because of the nature of their sports. If i'm holding them to my "make the best decisions to eventually win a championship" viewpoint, then I can't settle for being a consistent playoff team. In the NFL and MLB there are many factors and teams can make shrewd decisions and compete with rest of the league almost instantly. In the NBA, there are like 3-4 title contenders. The worst place to be is where the Bulls are. Everyone made fun of the 76ers but any smart Bulls fan would trade places with them in a second right now.

The problem is...you look at the Cavs...they got Lebron...they didn't do anything else all that smart...they just got lucky enough to get Lebron. Warriors did a lot more and I'll give them credit cause they didn't have some generational talent fall into their laps at the #1 pick...they drafted well (near the top of the draft, but well). My point is, in the NBA, a star driven league, only a few teams are going to win...it is a dynasty league like no other sport (still). So few teams have won titles over the last 20 years in that sport and it is because of how superstar driven it is. It is hard to find 1 superstar, let alone 2 or three. The Lakers have had quite a few top picks and right now they don't have on player who looks like he could develop into a guy even remotely close to what Jimmy Butler is. The Sixers have made a ton of lottery picks and only Embiid looks like he has a shot at being in the echelon of Butler (and Embiid has serious injury issues). In fact, Okafor, the #2 pick (and a guy everyone was talking about the whole college season) is sitting on the freaking bench barely playing (while they hope to trade him...Lakers #1 overall pick, Russell is also getting ripped to shreds by LA media / fans).

 

You got to draft well, but you don't necessarily need to be at the top. Look at all the championships Pat Riley won in Miami...yes they drafted Wade (and they didn't tank to get him) but almost everything else was done largely via free agency (and I agree that dynamic has changed, but I think it is will more morph into trades). I just do not support tanking. I am okay with rebuilding if that is what we see and the front office legitimately looks and says, we can't come up with any plausible scenario to build around Butler....that said, they haven't even freaking tried. They weren't sure what they were going to do this past off-season and this is the first year where we have seen Jimmy as the #1 option on our team (no more Rose) and he's emerged into a top 10 player. Shouldn't they at least "try" for a year or two while we have him under a bargain contract before dealing him (unless we get a blown away offer?).

 

 

[Chisoxfn]

I'm with you on this one and this is probably the biggest disconnect overall between Jason and me in this thread. I have a hard time enjoying my team if I know they have 0 shot to win the championship. That includes the playoffs in the NBA. In other sports you can luck your way into a championship and in the NBA you can't, it changes how I enjoy things. Obviously nobody is right or wrong here but that's personally how my entertainment value is shaped.

In that case, you might as well just know you won't enjoy any basketball because if you were a team in the Jordan era, you had no chance at beating peak Bulls and similarly, in the east, you pretty much need Lebron to get to a championship and in the west, right now, it is going through Golden State. Very hard for any team on paper to be better then Golden State. So in all reality, basically unless you are Golden State or Cleveland, you would not be happy cause no other team has a plausible chance right now.

 

That said, you never know when people get injured, etc.

[Chisoxfn]

By the way, the Heat were a middling team (with a superstar) when they landed LBJ & Bosh and went on to play in a bunch of championship games (and win some rings). Prior to that, the Heat were a middling team with a young Dwade superstar, when they landed Shaq and won a title.

 

I also gave the example of Kobe and the Lakers prior to getting Pau and how they went from a middling team back to a title contender like that.

 

The Celtics were a middling to poor team (with a star in Paul Pierce) before getting an aging Allen / Garnett where they went on to win a title.

 

Not many examples of teams who got to where they were by tanking / winning the lottery (and getting to the title). In fact, the Warriors are the only example of that (since the Cavs only got back after they "signed" LBJ). I suppose I should also count the Spurs, albeit, they were a great team, whose top player got hurt and they thus bombed and ended up winning the lotto and getting Duncan.

[Dick Allen]

You have to look into the crystal ball and try to determine if there is a Lebron or Michael or someone of that ilk coming into the draft the next couple of years. That's when you tank and trade Jimmy. If it's just a bunch of meddling guys, you might as well hang on and try to score some FA. But Gar has to go. Pax has to go, and Fred is just not respected. He has to go as well. Gar isn't going to interest FAs since the money is about the same, and it's easier to attract players in Miami and LA in the winter. Chicago is not all that great of place to hang during basketball season.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Dick Allen

[Y2Jimmy0]

The problem is...you look at the Cavs...they got Lebron...they didn't do anything else all that smart...they just got lucky enough to get Lebron. Warriors did a lot more and I'll give them credit cause they didn't have some generational talent fall into their laps at the #1 pick...they drafted well (near the top of the draft, but well). My point is, in the NBA, a star driven league, only a few teams are going to win...it is a dynasty league like no other sport (still). So few teams have won titles over the last 20 years in that sport and it is because of how superstar driven it is. It is hard to find 1 superstar, let alone 2 or three. The Lakers have had quite a few top picks and right now they don't have on player who looks like he could develop into a guy even remotely close to what Jimmy Butler is. The Sixers have made a ton of lottery picks and only Embiid looks like he has a shot at being in the echelon of Butler (and Embiid has serious injury issues). In fact, Okafor, the #2 pick (and a guy everyone was talking about the whole college season) is sitting on the freaking bench barely playing (while they hope to trade him...Lakers #1 overall pick, Russell is also getting ripped to shreds by LA media / fans).

 

You got to draft well, but you don't necessarily need to be at the top. Look at all the championships Pat Riley won in Miami...yes they drafted Wade (and they didn't tank to get him) but almost everything else was done largely via free agency (and I agree that dynamic has changed, but I think it is will more morph into trades). I just do not support tanking. I am okay with rebuilding if that is what we see and the front office legitimately looks and says, we can't come up with any plausible scenario to build around Butler....that said, they haven't even freaking tried. They weren't sure what they were going to do this past off-season and this is the first year where we have seen Jimmy as the #1 option on our team (no more Rose) and he's emerged into a top 10 player. Shouldn't they at least "try" for a year or two while we have him under a bargain contract before dealing him (unless we get a blown away offer?).

 

 

I agree here. Jimmy Butler is a top 15 player in the league. I don't see a path towards getting another one though is my point. Selling out right now to get Markelle Fulz of Washington or one of these other guys in the top 3 in addition to your own top 10 pick could do that. It could blow up and they could suck for a long time. The thing is though, they already suck now. If they made this deal with Boston (who knows if it's even been offered?) they'd basically have 4 lottery picks over the next 2 seasons, 2 of which probably top 5, gives you the chance at 1-2 of those dynasty type players. There is no other path towards acquiring a guy like that to place next to Jimmy Butler.

[Y2Jimmy0]

By the way, the Heat were a middling team (with a superstar) when they landed LBJ & Bosh and went on to play in a bunch of championship games (and win some rings). Prior to that, the Heat were a middling team with a young Dwade superstar, when they landed Shaq and won a title.

 

I also gave the example of Kobe and the Lakers prior to getting Pau and how they went from a middling team back to a title contender like that.

 

The Celtics were a middling to poor team (with a star in Paul Pierce) before getting an aging Allen / Garnett where they went on to win a title.

 

Not many examples of teams who got to where they were by tanking / winning the lottery (and getting to the title). In fact, the Warriors are the only example of that (since the Cavs only got back after they "signed" LBJ). I suppose I should also count the Spurs, albeit, they were a great team, whose top player got hurt and they thus bombed and ended up winning the lotto and getting Duncan.

 

 

The Thunder got damn close. Durant, Westbrook, Harden are pretty great top 5 picks.

[Y2Jimmy0]

You have to look into the crystal ball and try to determine if there is a Lebron or Michael or someone of that ilk coming into the draft the next couple of years. That's when you tank and trade Jimmy. If it's just a bunch of meddling guys, you might as well hang on and try to score some FA. But Gar has to go. Pax has to go, and Fred is just not respected. He has to go as well. Gar isn't going to interest FAs since the money is about the same, and it's easier to attract players in Miami and LA in the winter. Chicago is not all that great of place to hang during basketball season.

 

 

Dick, this upcoming draft is a monster one.

[Jenksismyhero]

By the way, the Heat were a middling team (with a superstar) when they landed LBJ & Bosh and went on to play in a bunch of championship games (and win some rings). Prior to that, the Heat were a middling team with a young Dwade superstar, when they landed Shaq and won a title.

 

I also gave the example of Kobe and the Lakers prior to getting Pau and how they went from a middling team back to a title contender like that.

 

The Celtics were a middling to poor team (with a star in Paul Pierce) before getting an aging Allen / Garnett where they went on to win a title.

 

Not many examples of teams who got to where they were by tanking / winning the lottery (and getting to the title). In fact, the Warriors are the only example of that (since the Cavs only got back after they "signed" LBJ). I suppose I should also count the Spurs, albeit, they were a great team, whose top player got hurt and they thus bombed and ended up winning the lotto and getting Duncan.

 

Bulls had a chance to do this twice when Rose went down and they knew he'd be out for the year. They could have done a soft tank and gotten into the lottery. Instead Thibs grinded out meaningless 1st and 2nd round exits.

[Y2Jimmy0]

http://www.csnchicago.com/nba-trade-rumors...rst-round-picks

[Kyyle23]

Bulls had a chance to do this twice when Rose went down and they knew he'd be out for the year. They could have done a soft tank and gotten into the lottery. Instead Thibs grinded out meaningless 1st and 2nd round exits.

 

Eh, they still had a decent team when Rose went down. Noah was coming into his own, Taj was Taj, Korver did his job, the bench mob was still there. Outside of trading most of the starting lineup, I don't think you can blame lack of tanking on Thibs. Plus, it was the East

[illinilaw08]

Dick, this upcoming draft is a monster one.

 

Yep.

 

The other thing in all of this is that a Bulls tank could help them get SAC's first round pick this year too. The Kings are currently sitting 10th from the bottom, and the pick is top 10 protected. A Bulls tank job could drive them below the Kings increasing the odds that the Bulls end up with another top 14 pick in this draft.

 

To echo Rowand's point above, there's nothing worse in the NBA than having a team that's stuck in mediocrity. A rebuild - and a real rebuild this time - will take time, patience, and good drafting, but being stuck in the NBA's middle class is the worst place you can be.

[Steve9347]

It looks like the Cavs have found the playmaker LeBron so greatly craves.

 

Cavs to work out Kirk Hinrich

[Jordan4life_2007]

It looks like the Cavs have found the playmaker LeBron so greatly craves.

 

Cavs to work out Kirk Hinrich

 

Be afraid Golden State. Be VERY afraid.

[Chisoxfn]

Eh, they still had a decent team when Rose went down. Noah was coming into his own, Taj was Taj, Korver did his job, the bench mob was still there. Outside of trading most of the starting lineup, I don't think you can blame lack of tanking on Thibs. Plus, it was the East

You also assumed that Rose was going to come back. Bad assumption, I know.

[Kyyle23]

You also assumed that Rose was going to come back. Bad assumption, I know.

 

Yea, there was zero clarity on his returns. Easy to say that we should have allowed the tank in retrospect, but during those seasons it was a carrot at the end of a long stick

[Jenksismyhero]

This LBJ/Wade v. Barkley feud is kind of funny. Excited to see how Barkley responds.

[Jordan4life_2007]

This LBJ/Wade v. Barkley feud is kind of funny. Excited to see how Barkley responds.

 

What did Wade say? About Barkley I mean.

[Balta1701]

In that case, you might as well just know you won't enjoy any basketball because if you were a team in the Jordan era, you had no chance at beating peak Bulls and similarly, in the east, you pretty much need Lebron to get to a championship and in the west, right now, it is going through Golden State. Very hard for any team on paper to be better then Golden State. So in all reality, basically unless you are Golden State or Cleveland, you would not be happy cause no other team has a plausible chance right now.

 

That said, you never know when people get injured, etc.

One thing I'm trying to ponder is whether or not the next generation of "Superteam assembly" has hurt this. I definitely felt like I enjoyed the Bulls teams that finished 4th-5th in the conference back in the mid-2000s WAY more than I'm enjoying these teams right now. Yes, there were better teams, but you could count on watching good basketball when you put those games on. Now, if you're not watching Cleveland versus Golden State or Golden State vs San Antonio, it seems like you're watching a bunch of middling basketball. Maybe that changes if you have a team that's top 5 in its conference too, but ever since the Heat came together it seems to me like being 4th in the conference just gets a much bigger MEH from me.

[Kyyle23]

What did Wade say? About Barkley I mean.

 

http://deadspin.com/dwyane-wade-is-also-si...s***-1791839210

 

Thank God he finally said something. LeBron, a lot of guys take a lot of shots at him—for whatever reason. He has just kept his mouth closed and continued to focus on what he needs to. But it’s about time he said something, man. Guys ride him, especially ex-players. When you have a history, when you can go and Google your history, you better be a little careful with what you say. Sometimes, when guys get a microphone in front of their face, they just talk and talk and talk and forget about their history. We all make that mistake, but especially that guy on TV. He acting like he just walks on water. And I like the fact that LeBron called him out and told him about himself a little bit. Humble yourself. LeBron is who he is. We all have flaws. But when your flaws are a little bit more, you should shut up. I’m glad LJ finally said something and stood up for himself from that standpoint. He said there’s a new sheriff in town. So I’m excited to see what’s next.

[Jordan4life_2007]

http://deadspin.com/dwyane-wade-is-also-si...s***-1791839210

 

Dayum. Barkley takin' L's from every direction.

[Rowand44]

People can hate LeBron if they want but he's 100 percent right here.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Rowand44

[Jordan4life_2007]

People can hate LeBron if they want but he's 100 percent right here.

 

I disagree. Chuck criticized LeBron from a basketball standpoint. If I'm LeBron, I go back at Barkley for being a fat out of shape (and i mean when he was playing), non-practicing, ringless loser. All that personal stuff was pretty wack on LeBron's part if you ask me. LeBron is being a whiny b****. He knows what's waiting for him come June and he's as shook as he's ever been.

[southsider2k5]

I disagree. Chuck criticized LeBron from a basketball standpoint. If I'm LeBron, I go back at Barkley for being a fat out of shape (and i mean when he was playing), non-practicing, ringless loser. All that personal stuff was pretty wack on LeBron's part if you ask me. LeBron is being a whiny b****. He knows what's waiting for him come June and he's as shook as he's ever been.

 

This is how I took it. LeBron's reply was straight up petty. He didn't go after Barkley's playing ability, nor his ability as a commentator. He went personal. How is that a relevant answer to if LeBron is a top 5 all time player? LeBron was just salty.

[Rowand44]

Barkley has gone after LeBron plenty of times. Whether it's his integrity, or the way he's buddy buddy with other players or telling Draymond that he had every right to kick LeBron in the balls last year. Seems like LBJ just had enough and went off. Good for him because like I said, everything that LBJ said is right.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Rowand44

[southsider2k5]

The other side of it is that I honestly believe that Barkley doesn't even believe 90% of what comes out of his mouth. I think he gets that his role on that show is to say something outrageous to stir things up. Apparently he touched a nerve with LeBron.