Time to Trade Chris Sale?

[Quin]

Apparently he is a pirate, because he leads the league in AR, (no W)

 

I chuckled.

[ptatc]

You are totally wrong about this, but you are stubborn. I'll let the other guys have at it. I'm going to bed. I mean you just mentioned offense which is what others were already saying. But hey... anything is possible.

No, I'm right. Wins matter. They are part of the equation just like anything else. Wins aren't the only thing but they should be in the equation just like WAR, ERA,SIERA and anything else.

[OmarComing25]

I'm not blaming him for it. However, he could be contributing to the losses by not being in the game and giving the offense a chance to score when he is pitching.

 

As stated in the other post I made, my only point is that wins shouldn't be ignored. They do play a part in the effectiveness of a starting pitcher.

I've already pointed out that the criticism that he doesn't go deep enough into games is wrong. Unless you think Jake Arrieta, Stephen Strasburg, David Price, Noah Syndergaard, Jose Fernandez, Marco Estrada and Cole Hamels (among many others) also don't go deep enough into games.

[SoxAce]

It may be. My comment was about the "wins don't matter." He has had a great year and could be the best pitcher but the lack of wins does need to be considered.

 

Obviously the journalist/voters do. That's why a couple of us were dismissive of quinarvy about Quintana and the Cy Young when a lot of us know, it'll be Sale since he has the wins. Hell, Sale had s great shot a couple of years ago and actually put up better peripherals but lost. Same with Kershaw vs Arrieta last year.

[Y2Jimmy0]

It may be. My comment was about the "wins don't matter." He has had a great year and could be the best pitcher but the lack of wins does need to be considered.

 

 

It's judging him by a measure that is completely out of his control though. This argument makes absolutely zero sense to the point where I can't believe someone is actually arguing it. If they don't score any runs, and he pitches great, he did his job. But somehow he's supposed to magically make them score more so that people can see an arbitrary number on the left side of the column under his name?

[bigruss]

No, I'm right. Wins matter. They are part of the equation just like anything else. Wins aren't the only thing but they should be in the equation just like WAR, ERA,SIERA and anything else.

WIN

 

Whatever

Is

Necessary

...

Today

 

WINT

 

[ptatc]

Obviously the journalist/voters do. That's why a couple of us were dismissive of quinarvy about Quintana and the Cy Young when a lot of us know, it'll be Sale since he has the wins. Hell, Sale had s great shot a couple of years ago and actually put up better peripherals but lost. Same with Kershaw vs Arrieta last year.

I would agree. wins aren't the only thing to look at and can be deceiving. That is why they are just part of the equation.

[OmarComing25]

It may be. My comment was about the "wins don't matter." He has had a great year and could be the best pitcher but the lack of wins does need to be considered.

But since Quintana does go deep enough into games, then why should the lack of run support need to be considered? He has no control over it. In 2006, Jon Garland finished with a better record than he did in 2005, even though his ERA rose by more than a run. Why should he get credit for that?

[ptatc]

It's judging him by a measure that is completely out of his control though. This argument makes absolutely zero sense to the point where I can't believe someone is actually arguing it. If they don't score any runs, and he pitches great, he did his job. But somehow he's supposed to magically make them score more so that people can see an arbitrary number on the left side of the column under his name?

It is not completely out of his control. all of the variables you described are true. however, he can control the other offense to large degree. He can pitch deep into games to give his team a chance. He can keep the lesser pitchers in the bullpen. If he is the best pitcher in the game, he should be able to do these things.

 

however, you are correct where he cannot control everything but he does have some control. This is why wins are part of the equation not the only variable.

[ptatc]

I've already pointed out that the criticism that he doesn't go deep enough into games is wrong. Unless you think Jake Arrieta, Stephen Strasburg, David Price, Noah Syndergaard, Jose Fernandez, Marco Estrada and Cole Hamels (among many others) also don't go deep enough into games.

Again, i'm not saying it's the only variable, just that it needs to be considered. This may be true so you need to look at others as well. But you just can't dismiss it outright.

[Quin]

It is not completely out of his control. all of the variables you described are true. however, he can control the other offense to large degree. He can pitch deep into games to give his team a chance. He can keep the lesser pitchers in the bullpen. If he is the best pitcher in the game, he should be able to do these things.

 

however, you are correct where he cannot control everything but he does have some control. This is why wins are part of the equation not the only variable.

 

I feel like whenever Q goes 8 innings, he strikes out 10, gives up 1 or 2 runs and loses or takes the ND.

 

[OmarComing25]

It is not completely out of his control. all of the variables you described are true. however, he can control the other offense to large degree. He can pitch deep into games to give his team a chance. He can keep the lesser pitchers in the bullpen. If he is the best pitcher in the game, he should be able to do these things.

 

however, you are correct where he cannot control everything but he does have some control. This is why wins are part of the equation not the only variable.

Who has been the better pitcher this year, Jose Quintana or Stephen Strasburg?

[bigruss]

Weather can impact a pitcher's outcome, so let's make that part of the equation as well.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Yeah, I put 0 value on pitcher wins. I only know Sale has 12 because it gets mentioned a lot. I honestly don't have a single clue how many wins ANY other pitcher has in baseball, or how many wins anyone had last year, White Sox or otherwise. I've successfully managed to push that meaningless statistic out of my mind.

[southsider2k5]

I chuckled.

 

I would also have accepted NDAR the Barbarian.

[Boopa1219]

I don't know about you guys, but I'd need at least one of Betts/Bogaerts AND 3 other elite prospects in order to trade the best pitcher in the American League.

 

Totally agree, I need Bogaerts and Moncoda to start in any deal

[ptatc]

But since Quintana does go deep enough into games, then why should the lack of run support need to be considered? He has no control over it. In 2006, Jon Garland finished with a better record than he did in 2005, even though his ERA rose by more than a run. Why should he get credit for that?

Does he have control over how many runs the other teams score? I'm sure the lack of run support changes the way he pitches and a great deal of support would change the way he pitches as well.

 

for the Garland case, maybe he had really good run support so to help the team he gave up some runs but stayed in games longer to save the bullpen and help win other games later. He may have been able to have better stats if he just left the game because he wasn't pitching as well. There are situations where pitchers stayed in games to do this and sacrificed stats. That doesn't happen as much now with the emphasis on the stats. however, this is part of the evolution of the game with 4 man pitching staffs to 5 man staffs and to the increased emphasis on the bullpen. doesn't mean i have to like it though

[Y2Jimmy0]

Who has been the better pitcher this year, Jose Quintana or Stephen Strasburg?

 

 

Quintana has been slightly better. Both are fantastic though.

[ptatc]

Yeah, I put 0 value on pitcher wins. I only know Sale has 12 because it gets mentioned a lot. I honestly don't have a single clue how many wins ANY other pitcher has in baseball, or how many wins anyone had last year, White Sox or otherwise. I've successfully managed to push that meaningless statistic out of my mind.

This is a mistake and you are missing the importance of the starting pitcher.

Edited June 22, 2016 by ptatc

[Y2Jimmy0]

I think I'm done here.

[ptatc]

Quintana has been slightly better. Both are fantastic though.

Agreed.

[OmarComing25]

Agreed.

If you agree that Quintana has been slightly better, then why all the arguments in favor of W-L record? Their numbers are close enough that if pitchers' wins mattered even a little bit then that should give Strasburg the edge, considering his record is way better than Quintana's.

[ptatc]

I think I'm done here.

This is a serious question.

 

Do you think it would be more effective to take the starting pitchers and pitch them 3 innings each as the Cubs tried at one point? This way the can go lights out for three innings then come back just 2 days later? This way you could have 6 starting pitchers for 3 days and have the bullpen cover the other 3? I always go back to that theory and wonder if it could be effective.

[Kyyle23]

Does he have control over how many runs the other teams score? I'm sure the lack of run support changes the way he pitches and a great deal of support would change the way he pitches as well.

for the Garland case, maybe he had really good run support so to help the team he gave up some runs but stayed in games longer to save the bullpen and help win other games later. He may have been able to have better stats if he just left the game because he wasn't pitching as well. There are situations where pitchers stayed in games to do this and sacrificed stats. That doesn't happen as much now with the emphasis on the stats. however, this is part of the evolution of the game with 4 man pitching staffs to 5 man staffs and to the increased emphasis on the bullpen. doesn't mean i have to like it though

 

I mean, you are just being incredibly obtuse about this in order to say Wins matter. Quintana has been on an incredible run where he is giving up 3 runs or less and losing or getting no decisions because the White Sox scored a total of 5 runs over a span of 7 starts. Quintana IS controlling other teams, and the one element out of his control is hanging losses on him.

[ptatc]

If you agree that Quintana has been slightly better, then why all the arguments in favor of W-L record? Their numbers are close enough that if pitchers' wins mattered even a little bit then that should give Strasburg the edge, considering his record is way better than Quintana's.

I'm saying the wins needs to be considered. I'm not saying it is the only factor or even the most important. I just disagree that it is meaningless and shouldn't be part of the process.