Time to Trade Chris Sale?

[Y2Jimmy0]

This is a serious question.

 

Do you think it would be more effective to take the starting pitchers and pitch them 3 innings each as the Cubs tried at one point? This way the can go lights out for three innings then come back just 2 days later? This way you could have 6 starting pitchers for 3 days and have the bullpen cover the other 3? I always go back to that theory and wonder if it could be effective.

 

 

You are the one with the medical background. Can they handle it? I have no idea, man.

[OmarComing25]

I'm saying the wins needs to be considered. I'm not saying it is the only factor or even the most important. I just disagree that it is meaningless and shouldn't be part of the process.

What kind of importance should we give them? Because even something small like 5% importance should give Strasburg the edge here.

[ptatc]

not part of the discussion. Just a theory that has been out there awhile. It's one that I always come back to when the discussion of pitching comes around. I truly wanted an opinion on it.

 

I guess instead of "serious question" i should have started it by saying On another topic" or something like that.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

There's really no point in arguing about Sale and Quintana in regards to their talent. Both are insanely good and we're lucky to have them on the Sox.

 

I will say that Sale would win the Cy Young if it came down to him and Q, though. He'll have more wins, K's, etc. Q is just as deserving IMO, but they'd give it to Sale if it was between the two.

[OmarComing25]

This is more a debate with people taking the extreme approach to everything.

 

"I never look at wins, they are a meaningless stat, it's not important."

 

Why do you have to take it that far? If I'm a talent evaluator and I'm looking at a pitcher, their amount of wins is not something I'm going to look at right off the bat. That's obvious. However, you'd be foolish not to at least use the stat for some sort of reference. The best example I can think of is Javy Vazquez. Without sounding too much like Hawk, that guy didn't know how to win a ballgame.

 

Anyone that uses analytics will tell you that ONLY using analytics is a very bad idea, or only using some analytics. The more information, the better. It's to help guide you into making an accurate assessment of a player.

So Quintana just doesn't know how to win a ballgame?

[ptatc]

What kind of importance should we give them? Because even something small like 5% importance should give Strasburg the edge here.

That is a good question. I'm not sure I could come up with an exact percentage. I don't think there is an exact equation for the Cy Young or best pitcher. It's just looking at the whole picture. Including competition, I would give that to the AL pitcher due to the DH alone.

[ptatc]

So Quintana just doesn't know how to win a ballgame?

Could be. How many 2 out hits do pitchers give up and people think "he just can't get that last out" In all sports there is a mental aspect to finishing. Being highly involved in running there is a huge mental game in racing vs. running.

[Y2Jimmy0]

not part of the discussion. Just a theory that has been out there awhile. It's one that I always come back to when the discussion of pitching comes around. I truly wanted an opinion on it.

 

I guess instead of "serious question" i should have started it by saying On another topic" or something like that.

 

 

If they could physically handle it, it sounds like something that could be beneficial. Obviously, the way the salary scale is and other factors would come into play on if it ever actually became feasible.

[SCCWS]

 

 

A woman's husband had been slipping in and out of a coma for several months, yet she had stayed by his bedside every single day. One day, when he came to, he motioned for her to come nearer. As she sat by him, he whispered, eyes full of tears, "You know what? You have been with me all through the bad times. When I got fired, you were there to support me. When my business failed, you were there. When I got shot, you were by my side. When we lost the house, you stayed right here. When my health started failing, you were still by my side. You know what?"

 

"What dear?" she asked gently, smiling as her heart began to fill with warmth.

 

"I think you're bad luck."

 

Q has been a slightly sub .500 pitcher for his career and he is now in his 5th season. It is ridiculous the run support he does not get. But, Chris Sale has played behind the same team and is +27 over the same timeframe. Q is bad luck.

[iamshack]

HOT TAKE ALERT.

 

Jesus.

 

Of course that's not the case. Nearly every analytic will show he is very strong starting pitcher that has been snake bit the last few years. And no where will see you see me arguing that wins are an important stat. But I'm also not going to totally throw the W statistic out the window just because some feel it's outdated. It has a use, and it's up to user reading the stats to decide what value he wants to put on that stat.

 

That make sense, Skip?

Agreed. Although analytics are starting to get better at identifying some of the things that I feel are part and parcel to what makes wins somewhat valuable as a point of reference. One thought that comes to mind is holding an offense scoreless immediately following your own offense scoring runs.

 

 

[ptatc]

A woman's husband had been slipping in and out of a coma for several months, yet she had stayed by his bedside every single day. One day, when he came to, he motioned for her to come nearer. As she sat by him, he whispered, eyes full of tears, "You know what? You have been with me all through the bad times. When I got fired, you were there to support me. When my business failed, you were there. When I got shot, you were by my side. When we lost the house, you stayed right here. When my health started failing, you were still by my side. You know what?"

 

"What dear?" she asked gently, smiling as her heart began to fill with warmth.

 

"I think you're bad luck."

 

Q has been a slightly sub .500 pitcher for his career and he is now in his 5th season. It is ridiculous the run support he does not get. But, Chris Sale has played behind the same team and is +27 over the same timeframe. Q is bad luck.

He has had bad luck for 5 years? The researcher in me thinks there are other reasons.

[OmarComing25]

Could be. How many 2 out hits do pitchers give up and people think "he just can't get that last out" In all sports there is a mental aspect to finishing. Being highly involved in running there is a huge mental game in racing vs. running.

He's actually pitched at his best in high leverage situations and with runners on base this year.

[ptatc]

100%

 

Sorry, I just get annoyed when people want to be "progressive" and think they are ahead of the curve by just completely eliminating a statistic or data. Why would you do that? You should want as much information as possible at your disposal to make a determination on the value of whatever player you are talking about. How you use that information is up to you.

Dang, i wish I could have come up with this statement.

 

Thanks, my point exactly.

[NCsoxfan]

What in the he!! happened to this thread since last night?? hahaha

[ptatc]

He's actually pitched at his best in high leverage situations and with runners on base this year.

good. another reason why I would give him a slight edge over Strasburg.

[ptatc]

What in the he!! happened to this thread since last night?? hahaha

got in from NC from a track meet last night and I have a day off of work. Bad weather and I'm bored.

[OmarComing25]

HOT TAKE ALERT.

 

Jesus.

 

Of course that's not the case. Nearly every analytic will show he is very strong starting pitcher that has been snake bit the last few years. And no where will see you see me arguing that wins are an important stat. But I'm also not going to totally throw the W statistic out the window just because some feel it's outdated. It has a use, and it's up to user reading the stats to decide what value he wants to put on that stat.

 

That make sense, Skip?

OK, and what value do they have to you? How is saying Vazquez "didn't know how to win" any less of a hot take?

[TitoMB345]

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-so...is-sale-red-sox

 

Apparently this guy wants us to trade Chris Sale for a bunch of prospects from the Boston Bruins.

[Jose Abreu]

He's actually pitched at his best in high leverage situations and with runners on base this year.

lmao, you keep refuting points with stats

[hi8is]

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-so...is-sale-red-sox

 

Apparently this guy wants us to trade Chris Sale for a bunch of prospects from the Boston Bruins.

You're fired.

[OmarComing25]

This is more a debate with people taking the extreme approach to everything.

 

"I never look at wins, they are a meaningless stat, it's not important."

 

Why do you have to take it that far? If I'm a talent evaluator and I'm looking at a pitcher, their amount of wins is not something I'm going to look at right off the bat. That's obvious. However, you'd be foolish not to at least use the stat for some sort of reference. The best example I can think of is Javy Vazquez. Without sounding too much like Hawk, that guy didn't know how to win a ballgame.

 

Anyone that uses analytics will tell you that ONLY using analytics is a very bad idea, or only using some analytics. The more information, the better. It's to help guide you into making an accurate assessment of a player.

Curiosity got the best of me so I looked it up. Vazquez had a career 105 ERA+, so he was 5% better than the average pitcher. Over his career, the average runs scored/game in the league he pitched in was 4.67 runs/game, while the average run support he received was 4.49 runs/game, or 4% less than the league average. He ended up 165-160, which is pretty much exactly what you would expect from those numbers.

 

Yes it seems obvious and needless to point out, as it would be difficult for his W-L record to turn out a different way given those numbers, I'm just illustrating a point. There's nothing strange in Vazquez's W-L record, it's exactly what it should be.

Edited June 22, 2016 by OmarComing25

[iamshack]

Curiosity got the best of me so I looked it up. Vazquez had a career 105 ERA+, so he was 5% better than the average pitcher. Over his career, the average runs scored/game in the league he pitched in was 4.67 runs/game, while the average run support he received was 4.49 runs/game, or 4% less than the league average. He ended up 165-160, which is pretty much exactly what you would expect from those numbers.

 

Yes it seems obvious and needless to point out, as it would be difficult for his W-L record to turn out a different way given those numbers, I'm just illustrating a point. There's nothing strange in Vazquez's W-L record, it's exactly what it should be.

I don't believe you are looking at this correctly. I don't believe he is arguing that Javy's body of work is not representative of his actual win-loss record. What I believe is being argued is that Javy's statistical body of work and win-loss record is not representative of his actual pitching ability.

[OmarComing25]

I don't believe you are looking at this correctly. I don't believe he is arguing that Javy's body of work is not representative of his actual win-loss record. What I believe is being argued is that Javy's statistical body of work and win-loss record is not representative of his actual pitching ability.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Is the argument that Vazquez didn't live up to his talent level? I think everyone would agree there, but that happens to most pitchers, so I'm not sure how looking at win-loss record is a good indicator of this.

[beautox]

A bunch of Boston fans I saw talking online seemed to agree on Sale for Moncada and Espinoza

Just do it after the WS when Groome becomes available.

 

Moncada, Benintendi, Espinoza, Groome, Swihart

[bmags]

lmao, you keep refuting points with stats