The myth of Rick Hahn, Master Negotiator

[caulfield12]

I was just thinking about why Hahn gets SO MUCH credit for the Eaton, Sale, Q and Abreu (this isn't as good, starting next year) contracts.

 

Why do we have the assumption that nobody else could have done the same? That you have to have a law or business degree to pull it off?

 

 

Then I thought about the Indians and looked at their payroll. Still well under $100 million, despite the Swisher/Bourn/C.Johnson debacles.

 

 

Carlos Santana 5 years/$21 million 2017 option

Michael Brantley 4 years/$25 million 2018 option

Jason Kipnis 6 years/$52.5 million 2020 option

Corey Kluber 5 years/$38.5 million 2020/21 options

Carlos Carrasco 4 years/$22 million 2019/20 options

Yan Gomes 6 years/$23 million 2020/21 options

Josh Tomlin 2 years/$5.5 million 2018 option

 

That's not even considering future extensions for Lindor, Jose Ramirez, Salazar (top five pitcher in the AL now) and possibly Trevor Bauer, if he's not traded.

 

That's what is called a young core, and all locked up under favorable contract conditions. You can quibble about Brantley's injury history, and Gomes also hasn't gotten back to his 2014 form, but WOW.

 

It's actually kind of depressing...just when we thought the Royals were leaving the scene, you have the Indians now (last year at this time, it was the Twins with Buxton/Sano/Berrios on the way, things can and certainly do change in baseball, Sox fans know that all too well in 2016.)

 

At any rate, I think this idea of Hahn pulling off "miracle extensions" is a bit ridiculous. These deals have been in place since the mid 90's Cleveland Indians teams. Other small market teams like the Rays/Twins/A's have followed suit, as the only way to survive and keep their core intact an additional year or two.

 

 

Finally, there's one last point. I don't have the statistical evidence in front of me, but I think there's a niche to be found signing young Latin American talent (outside of the draft) and then giving them early extensions...because it's more money than anyone in their village has ever seen in ten lifetimes. American-born players might be likely to turn these moves down (see Rodon/Boras) because they're 100% certain they will make even more in the future.

 

You can certainly see this motivation with Jose Quintana and his comments upon signing his extension.

 

Alexei Ramirez, his original deal was one of the great bargain basement signings in Sox history. KW signed it.

 

Or Salvador Perez, five years and $7 million for the second best catcher in baseball after Posey. A contract so "one-sided/unfair," the Royals ripped it up and gave him a new extension before they even had to.

 

 

If this is actually the ONE area where Rick Hahn is good/great at, and nothing else...then I don't see why every other GM in baseball isn't capable of accomplishing the same thing???

 

I'd argue if he was the "best in the art of making the deal" (Trumpism), he'd be able to get Carlos Rodon/Boras to sign an extension. Does anyone believe he's capable of doing that? I don't think so!

 

Finally, NONE of his free agents signings have turned out to create "surplus value," not by a long shot.

Edited June 21, 2016 by caulfield12

[kevo880]

I was just thinking about why Hahn gets SO MUCH credit for the Eaton, Sale, Q and Abreu (this isn't as good, starting next year) contracts.

 

Why do we have the assumption that nobody else could have done the same? That you have to have a law or business degree to pull it off?

 

 

Then I thought about the Indians and looked at their payroll. Still well under $100 million, despite the Swisher/Bourn/C.Johnson debacles.

 

 

Carlos Santana 5 years/$21 million 2017 option

Michael Brantley 4 years/$25 million 2018 option

Jason Kipnis 6 years/$52.5 million 2020 option

Corey Kluber 5 years/$38.5 million 2020/21 options

Carlos Carrasco 4 years/$22 million 2019/20 options

Johnny Gomes 6 years/$23 million 2020/21 options

Tomlin 2 years/$5.5 million 2018 option

 

That's not even considering future extensions for Lindor, Jose Ramirez, Salazar (top five pitcher in the AL now) and possibly Trevor Bauer, if he's not traded.

 

That's what is called a young core, and all locked up under favorable contract conditions. You can quibble about Brantley's injury history, and Gomes also hasn't gotten back to his 2014 form, but WOW.

 

It's actually kind of depressing...just when we thought the Royals were leaving the scene, you have the Indians now (last year at this time, it was the Twins with Buxton/Sano/Berrios on the way, things can and certainly do change in baseball, Sox fans know that all too well in 2016.)

 

At any rate, I think this idea of Hahn pulling off "miracle extensions" is a bit ridiculous. These deals have been in place since the mid 90's Cleveland Indians teams. Other small market teams like the Rays/Twins/A's have followed suit, as the only way to survive and keep their core intact an additional year or two.

 

 

Finally, there's one last point. I don't have the statistical evidence in front of me, but I think there's a niche to be found signing young Latin American talent (outside of the draft) and then giving them early extensions...because it's more money than anyone in their village has ever seen in ten lifetimes. American-born players might be likely to turn these moves down (see Rodon/Boras) because they're 100% certain they will make even more in the future.

 

You can certainly see this motivation with Jose Quintana and his comments upon signing his extension.

 

Alexei Ramirez, his original deal was one of the great bargain basement signings in Sox history. KW signed it.

 

Or Salvador Perez, five years and $7 million for the second best catcher in baseball after Posey. A contract so "one-sided/unfair," the Royals ripped it up and gave him a new extension before they even had to.

 

 

If this is actually the ONE area where Rick Hahn is good/great at, and nothing else...then I don't see why every other GM in baseball isn't capable of accomplishing the same thing???

 

I'd argue if he was the "best in the art of making the deal" (Trumpism), he'd be able to get Carlos Rodon/Boras to sign an extension. Does anyone believe he's capable of doing that? I don't think so!

 

This doesn't belong in the Rick Hahn thread that already exists?

[caulfield12]

Sure, you can put it there if you'd like...however, I believe this is a more detailed/different perspective that doesn't touch upon anything being mentioned in that particular thread in more than a general or generic way.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Sure, you can put it there if you'd like...however, I believe this is a more detailed/different perspective that doesn't touch upon anything being mentioned in that particular thread in more than a general or generic way.

So looking at the Indians proves Hahn deserves no credit for his deals. Sale's contract was 5 years $32 million with a $12.5 million option and a $13.5 million option. Q 5 years $21 million with 2 $10.5 million options after that. Eaton 5 years $23.5 million with a $9.5 million and $10.5 million option. What a myth this guy is a great contract negotiator.

 

The ridiculousness will never end.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Quin]

Yeah Caulfield, I appreciate the numbers, but this thread is dumb.

 

There can be multiple great negotiators in the league.

[ptatc]

So looking at the Indians proves Hahn deserves no credit for his deals.

 

The ridiculousness will never end.

I'm going to have to switch my "Unbelievable......" posts to every time someone blames Hahn for something.

[chw42]

I think you meant Yan Gomes. Johnny Gomes is more or less retired.

Edited June 21, 2016 by chw42

[caulfield12]

So looking at the Indians proves Hahn deserves no credit for his deals. Sale's contract was 5 years $32 million with a $12.5 million option and a $13.5 million option. Q 5 years $21 million with 2 $10.5 million options after that. Eaton 5 years $23.5 million with a $9.5 million and $10.5 million option. What a myth this guy is a great contract negotiator.

 

The ridiculousness will never end.

 

 

The point is that every GM in baseball is capable of doing the same thing. Not just Rick Hahn.

 

You're telling me that Hahn would have gotten all those "deals" with Indians players for a 33% discount?

 

 

In fact, the Indians are in much better shape with these types of contracts, and avoided the trap of taking a Boras client who will never in a million years sign an extension and lose a free agent year.

[caulfield12]

I'm going to have to switch my "Unbelievable......" posts to every time someone blames Hahn for something.

 

 

It's just as hard to come up with a list of things Hahn is good at...compared to the list of things Ventura is good at.

 

We can speculate all we want that "Rick Hahn if you gave him the Dodgers/Yankees/Red Sox/Angels/Giants' payroll would be the best GM in the game, and a HoF front office executive."

 

But, for the time being, all we have is the evidence before us compiled with the White Sox.

 

 

You follow the team closely, what would you do? Fire no one? Just Steverson? You always seem to pair Hahn/KW together, so there's really no separation in terms of their identity or success rate/failure rate. Therefore, as a cumulative whole for their body of work since 2012, should they stay or go?

Edited June 21, 2016 by caulfield12

[GreenSox]

I was just thinking about why Hahn gets SO MUCH credit for the Eaton, Sale, Q and Abreu (this isn't as good, starting next year) contracts.

 

Why do we have the assumption that nobody else could have done the same? That you have to have a law or business degree to pull it off?

 

 

Then I thought about the Indians and looked at their payroll. Still well under $100 million, despite the Swisher/Bourn/C.Johnson debacles.

 

 

Carlos Santana 5 years/$21 million 2017 option

Michael Brantley 4 years/$25 million 2018 option

Jason Kipnis 6 years/$52.5 million 2020 option

Corey Kluber 5 years/$38.5 million 2020/21 options

Carlos Carrasco 4 years/$22 million 2019/20 options

Yan Gomes 6 years/$23 million 2020/21 options

Josh Tomlin 2 years/$5.5 million 2018 option

 

That's not even considering future extensions for Lindor, Jose Ramirez, Salazar (top five pitcher in the AL now) and possibly Trevor Bauer, if he's not traded.

 

That's what is called a young core, and all locked up under favorable contract conditions. You can quibble about Brantley's injury history, and Gomes also hasn't gotten back to his 2014 form, but WOW.

It's that number of players that stands out. Cleveland has a core of 8-10.

Rick Hahn started trading for short-term and otherwise mediocre veterans when he had a core of 4. That shows how overmatched Hahn is as a major league GM (and I'm sure he's hand-in-hand with Williams in refusing to build a core).

Edited June 21, 2016 by GreenSox

[bighurt574]

The point is that every GM in baseball is capable of doing the same thing. Not just Rick Hahn.

 

You're telling me that Hahn would have gotten all those "deals" with Indians players for a 33% discount?

 

 

In fact, the Indians are in much better shape with these types of contracts, and avoided the trap of taking a Boras client who will never in a million years sign an extension and lose a free agent year.

 

Sure, every GM is capable, but how many teams have a bunch of young guys locked in to favorable deals? Some do, some don't. Highlighting another that does doesn't really prove anything.

 

Hahn has his strengths and weaknesses, but I'm not sure you can just write off this aspect that appears to be a strength.

[Dick Allen]

The point is that every GM in baseball is capable of doing the same thing. Not just Rick Hahn.

 

You're telling me that Hahn would have gotten all those "deals" with Indians players for a 33% discount?

 

 

In fact, the Indians are in much better shape with these types of contracts, and avoided the trap of taking a Boras client who will never in a million years sign an extension and lose a free agent year.

Sale was cheaper than Kluber , q cheaper than Carassco, and both have an additional team friendly option year, and Eaton with the options cheaper than Santana.

 

I wouldn't trade Sale and Q and Eaton for Kluber and Carassco and Santana. And they are the contracts Hahn negotiated are more team friendly.

 

Someday you may introduce facts into your arguments. But if you did so on this one, the thread would never have been made,

Edited June 21, 2016 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

And then they supplemented with ONE YEAR deals (see Red Sox 2013) for Napoli (Comeback Player of the Year, possibly), Rajai Davis and Uribe.

 

None of those guys were expensive, at all.

 

Seemingly every year, the AL Central teams since 2003 (with the exception of 2005 obviously) have been able to beat us at the free agent game...first it was the Twins, then the Tigers, now the Indians and Royals have outdone us.

 

The only commonality is the results stay the same for the White Sox.

 

 

So you've got that 8-10 core of young guys all under age 30, not to mention Cody Allen and Shaw, who has been one of the best set-up guys in baseball until recently. Plus Jose Ramirez/Salazar/Bauer, three players with tremendous surplus value at the moment. Ramirez is the closest thing in the AL to Ben Zobrist in terms of positional flexibility.

 

Marlon Byrd and Almonte go down with PED's suspensions, no problem! Tyler Naquin has a chance to be a good player (relatively high draft pick), and then you've got 5 Top 100 prospects if you want to make a trade to "put you over the top."

http://www.letsgotribe.com/2016/2/13/10985...r-clint-frazier

 

The White Sox have one remaining Top 100 guy in Fulmer, whose value has taken a step or two back so far in his minor league career.

Edited June 21, 2016 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

And then they supplemented with ONE YEAR deals (see Red Sox 2013) for Napoli (Comeback Player of the Year, possibly), Rajai Davis and Uribe.

 

None of those guys were expensive, at all.

 

Seemingly every year, the AL Central teams since 2003 (with the exception of 2005 obviously) have been able to beat us at the free agent game...first it was the Twins, then the Tigers, now the Indians and Royals have outdone us.

 

The only commonality is the results stay the same for the White Sox.

 

 

So you've got that 8-10 core of young guys all under age 30, not to mention Cody Allen and Shaw, who has been one of the best set-up guys in baseball until recently. Plus Jose Ramirez/Salazar/Bauer, three players with tremendous surplus value at the moment. Ramirez is the closest thing in the AL to Ben Zobrist in terms of positional flexibility.

 

Marlon Byrd and Almonte go down with PED's suspensions, no problem! Tyler Naquin has a chance to be a good player (relatively high draft pick), and then you've got 5 Top 100 prospects if you want to make a trade to "put you over the top."

http://www.letsgotribe.com/2016/2/13/10985...r-clint-frazier

 

The White Sox have one remaining Top 100 guy in Fulmer, whose value has taken a step or two back so far in his minor league career.

Mike Napoli increases his OPS .036 and he is the comeback player of the year?

Did you break up with Ian Desmond?

Edited June 21, 2016 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

Sale was cheaper than Kluber , q cheaper than Carassco, and both have an additional team friendly option year, and Eaton with the options cheaper than Santana.

 

I wouldn't trade Sale and Q and Eaton for Kluber and Carassco and Santana. And they are the contracts Hahn negotiated are more team friendly.

 

Someday you may introduce facts into your arguments. But if you did so on this one, the thread would never have been made,

 

 

Brilliant. I'm surprised Indians' fans are not currently clamoring to trade their front office executives. If they're reading this thread, you've probably convinced them.

 

The fact is that Lindor is going to be the best player in the AL outside of Mike Trout. It's just that nobody will know who he is (see Jose Quintana) because he happens to play in Cleveland. Salazar has a chance to be one of the Top 5 pitchers, if he isn't there already.

 

On Latin America alone, the Indians have beaten anything the White Sox have done AS A WHOLE the last five years.

 

So selectively stacking up 3 of their core against the 3 best from ours....is inane at best, and obtuse at worst.

Edited June 21, 2016 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

So one other team has done this, and that is supposed to show that Hahn is some how a bad GM? Um, if it was that easy, how come the Cubs haven't locked up any of their young core?

[MIZ-SOX]

So because there are other good negotiators in the league, Hahn can't also be a good negotiator? Got it.

[caulfield12]

Mike Napoli increases his OPS .036 and he is the comeback player of the year?

Did you break up with Ian Desmond?

 

 

It will actually be Sabathia.

 

For the AL Central, in terms of importance to their teams, I'd divide it between Verlander and Napoli.

 

 

Napoli only had 407 at-bats last year. He's on pace for 600 this year. You can argue WAR values all you want, but I've followed the Indians all year long and he's had a ton of clutch hits. On paper, statistically, in terms of homers and RBI's, he's been critically important with Michael Brantley out. Now I know that some fans no longer care about these traditional metrics, but they still exist.

Edited June 21, 2016 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

So because there are other good negotiators in the league, Hahn can't also be a good negotiator? Got it.

 

 

What else is Rick Hahn good at?

 

I never said he can't be, he has done a good job with those 3 contracts (jury's out on Abreu now), but that he's some magical Jesus walking on water and raising Lazarus from the dead....the Joe Maddon of GM's with mystical powers, just not seeing that at all.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Brilliant. I'm surprised Indians' fans are not currently clamoring to trade their front office executives. If they're reading this thread, you've probably convinced them.

 

The fact is that Lindor is going to be the best player in the AL outside of Mike Trout. It's just that nobody will know who he is (see Jose Quintana) because he happens to play in Cleveland. Salazar has a chance to be one of the Top 5 pitchers, if he isn't there already.

 

On Latin America alone, the Indians have beaten anything the White Sox have done AS A WHOLE the last five years.

 

So selectively stacking up 3 of their core against the 3 best from ours....is inane at best, and obtuse at worst.

What does Lindor have to do with Rick Hahn's negotiating skills, which is the subject of this thread, that you created?

[Dick Allen]

What else is Rick Hahn good at?

 

I never said he can't be, he has done a good job with those 3 contracts (jury's out on Abreu now), but that he's some magical Jesus walking on water and raising Lazarus from the dead....the Joe Maddon of GM's with mystical powers, just not seeing that at all.

So you think maybe someday he will be a better negotiator, but now, just because he signed better players to more team friendly contracts, well"......Lindor.

[caulfield12]

So one other team has done this, and that is supposed to show that Hahn is some how a bad GM? Um, if it was that easy, how come the Cubs haven't locked up any of their young core?

 

 

Why would they need to? They are printing as much money as the Chinese over here.

 

And, in the next year or so, I'm sure they will start making these moves with Bryant and a few others. They've already done it with Rizzo. They can afford to be patient and wait for the best young players to separate themselves from the chaff. There's no rush to decide on guys like Russell, Baez, Soler, Schwarber, etc.

 

Lester, Zobrist and Heyward already have their multi-year contracts.

 

Maybe Rondon makes sense, he and Bryant. At the moment.

 

 

[caulfield12]

So you think maybe someday he will be a better negotiator, but now, just because he signed better players to more team friendly contracts, well"......Lindor.

 

 

No, lol.

 

I think you build a baseball TEAM and organization. This is not the NBA, or the University of Kentucky basketball program.

 

I don't think you CAN EVER win with a core of just three or four or even five guys in MLB when the rest of that team is roughly replacement level.

 

The Indians have 12 that cumulatively have more value all around baseball than a number of MLB organizations, major and minor leagues...at the moment.

 

That's not even taking into consideration their 5 top 100 MILB/Baseball America prospects.

Edited June 21, 2016 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Why would they need to? They are printing as much money as the Chinese over here.

 

And, in the next year or so, I'm sure they will start making these moves with Bryant and a few others. They've already done it with Rizzo. They can afford to be patient and wait for the best young players to separate themselves from the chaff. There's no rush to decide on guys like Russell, Baez, Soler, Schwarber, etc.

 

Lester, Zobrist and Heyward already have their multi-year contracts.

 

Maybe Rondon makes sense, he and Bryant. At the moment.

This is the reply when the answer is "I got nothing"

 

Bryant is repped by Boras. Do you think the Cubs could sign him to something like the average negotiator gave Sale? Do you think they are going to forget that little service time issue last year and give the Cubs a deal?

Edited June 21, 2016 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

Why would they need to? They are printing as much money as the Chinese over here.

 

And, in the next year or so, I'm sure they will start making these moves with Bryant and a few others. They've already done it with Rizzo. They can afford to be patient and wait for the best young players to separate themselves from the chaff. There's no rush to decide on guys like Russell, Baez, Soler, Schwarber, etc.

 

Lester, Zobrist and Heyward already have their multi-year contracts.

 

Maybe Rondon makes sense, he and Bryant. At the moment.

 

So he hasn't done it, but that ok because something else unrelated... names, names, names. Makes perfect sense to me.