The myth of Rick Hahn, Master Negotiator

[Dick Allen]

No, lol.

 

I think you build a baseball TEAM and organization. This is not the NBA, or the University of Kentucky basketball program.

 

I don't think you CAN EVER win with a core of just three or four or even five guys in MLB when the rest of that team is roughly replacement level.

 

The Indians have 12 that cumulatively have more value all around baseball than a number of MLB organizations, major and minor leagues...at the moment.

 

That's not even taking into consideration their 5 top 100 MILB/Baseball America prospects.

This is not what the thread that you created is about.

[caulfield12]

So he hasn't done it, but that ok because something else unrelated... names, names, names. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

 

Apparently Rizzo doesn't count, he sucks I guess.

 

Zobrist/Heyward/Lackey/Fowler don't mean anything either.

 

Why would Bryant want to leave Chicago if the Cubs win the World Series? Boras is all about MONEY/MARKETING. Keeping him in Chicago, he'd have a gold mine on his hand. What franchise would he be worth more to, exactly? NONE. That team doesn't exist.

 

 

So out of all those young players, WHICH ONES WOULD RICK HAHN EXPERTLY GET TO SIGN EXTENSIONS TODAY AND FOR HOW MUCH???

 

H.Rondon

Bryant

Soler

Russell

Baez

Schwarber

Contreras

Almora

 

 

Please inform us all.

Edited June 21, 2016 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Apparently Rizzo doesn't count, he sucks I guess.

 

Zobrist/Heyward/Lackey/Fowler don't mean anything either.

 

Why would Bryant want to leave Chicago if the Cubs win the World Series? Boras is all about MONEY/MARKETING. Keeping him in Chicago, he'd have a gold mine on his hand. What franchise would he be worth more to, exactly? NONE. That team doesn't exist.

 

 

So out of all those young players, WHICH ONES WOULD RICK HAHN EXPERTLY GET TO SIGN EXTENSIONS TODAY AND FOR HOW MUCH???

 

H.Rondon

Bryant

Soler

Russell

Baez

Schwarber

Contreras

Almora

 

 

Please inform us all.

 

 

Way to move the goalposts to free agents. I though you were talking about signing young players to early contracts? What exactly are you talking about? Or because it didn't apply here you just changed the focus completely to list more names?

[caulfield12]

This is not what the thread that you created is about.

 

 

Sure it is.

 

Implicit in this thread is the idea that the Indians doubled and will eventually TRIPLE the number of bargain contract extensions for young members of their core. That the cumulative surplus value of that trumps anything else.

 

Hahn won't, because what players will he have to extend? Lawrie? Frazier? Nate Jones? Cabrera? Rodon? Avi Garcia?

 

Anderson might be the only one, EVENTUALLY.

[southsider2k5]

Apparently Rizzo doesn't count, he sucks I guess.

Zobrist/Heyward/Lackey/Fowler don't mean anything either.

 

Why would Bryant want to leave Chicago if the Cubs win the World Series? Boras is all about MONEY/MARKETING. Keeping him in Chicago, he'd have a gold mine on his hand. What franchise would he be worth more to, exactly? NONE. That team doesn't exist.

 

 

So out of all those young players, WHICH ONES WOULD RICK HAHN EXPERTLY GET TO SIGN EXTENSIONS TODAY AND FOR HOW MUCH???

 

H.Rondon

Bryant

Soler

Russell

Baez

Schwarber

Contreras

Almora

 

 

Please inform us all.

 

 

Sure it is.

 

Implicit in this thread is the idea that the Indians doubled and will eventually TRIPLE the number of bargain contract extensions for young members of their core. That the cumulative surplus value of that trumps anything else.

 

Hahn won't, because what players will he have to extend? Lawrie? Frazier? Nate Jones? Cabrera? Rodon? Avi Garcia?

 

Anderson might be the only one, EVENTUALLY.

 

Yeah, you are even contradicting yourself post to post.

 

[Dick Allen]

Sure it is.

 

Implicit in this thread is the idea that the Indians doubled and will eventually TRIPLE the number of bargain contract extensions for young members of their core. That the cumulative surplus value of that trumps anything else.

 

Hahn won't, because what players will he have to extend? Lawrie? Frazier? Nate Jones? Cabrera? Rodon? Avi Garcia?

 

Anderson might be the only one, EVENTUALLY.

You are making things up again.

 

And if he doesn't have anyone to extend does that mean his negotiation skills are non existent?

 

I get Hahn is becoming the new target because of Shields. I get you wanting to become a hero to all the people who are now starting to blame Hahn. But at least try to be a little accurate.

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Chicago White Sox]

Absolutely embarrassing thread.

[caulfield12]

Still, nobody can come up with anything that Hahn does well.

 

Very telling.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Still, nobody can come up with anything that Hahn does well.

 

Very telling.

 

I bet he could start better threads than this.

[caulfield12]

Way to move the goalposts to free agents. I though you were talking about signing young players to early contracts? What exactly are you talking about? Or because it didn't apply here you just changed the focus completely to list more names?

 

 

You brought up the Cubs...which is relevant how?

 

When I pointed out that there are no players on the Cubs that would even reasonably be extended AT THIS MOMENT, other than Bryant and Rondon, you couldn't come up with any players they should extend or that Hahn would extend.

 

And then when I mentioned Rizzo, you ignored that.

 

So who exactly on the Cubs would Rick Hahn be extending now were he the Cubs' GM?

 

 

I mentioned free agents because other than Arrieta, all of their key players are currently locked up long-term, so who exactly COULD they be extending at this point???

 

 

[caulfield12]

I bet he could start better threads than this.

 

 

Why don't you invite him to?

 

His job is partially related to public relations for the team.

 

I know, I know, he has better things to worry about. Ventura also has mentioned he has never read anything in print or on the internet.

 

So why don't you try Haber, and getting him to explain why there's been a complete turnaround philosophically from the path charted as the 2014 season ended.

 

Let's find out how smart Haber is.

[southsider2k5]

You brought up the Cubs...which is relevant how?

 

When I pointed out that there are no players on the Cubs that would even reasonably be extended AT THIS MOMENT, other than Bryant and Rondon, you couldn't come up with any players they should extend or that Hahn would extend.

 

And then when I mentioned Rizzo, you ignored that.

 

So who exactly on the Cubs would Rick Hahn be extending now were he the Cubs' GM?

 

 

I mentioned free agents because other than Arrieta, all of their key players are currently locked up long-term, so who exactly COULD they be extending at this point???

 

So you start a thread about another team to compare it to our GM. I mention another team that has absolutely failed to lock up its young pre-arb guys. Instead you change the subject and mention a ton of players completely off-base of what you were just talking about, except for one. Your point was that Hahn somehow was a failure for the 4 or 5 guys he had locked up early, but apparently Epstein with one was a genius, because he did exactly the opposite of what you just said Hahn should have been doing, because the GM in Cleveland did it.

 

Yep, par for the course.

[oldsox]

I vote for Caulfield on this one. Why should Scrubs extend Russell, Bryant, Schwarber now? Caulfield all the way.

[iamshack]

Still, nobody can come up with anything that Hahn does well.

 

Very telling.

The Indians actually were one of the pioneers of this type of strategy, and have been doing it since the Mark Shapiro days.

 

 

[Kalapse]

I vote for Caulfield on this one. Why should Scrubs extend Russell, Bryant, Schwarber now? Caulfield all the way.

Was that the hypothesis of this thread? I feel like it wasn't but who can follow along?

[Kalapse]

Still, nobody can come up with anything that Hahn does well.

 

Very telling.

Um, the entire premise of this thread is that Hahn does this one thing well but also, so does this other guy.

[Dunt]

What else is Rick Hahn good at?

 

I never said he can't be, he has done a good job with those 3 contracts (jury's out on Abreu now), but that he's some magical Jesus walking on water and raising Lazarus from the dead....the Joe Maddon of GM's with mystical powers, just not seeing that at all.

 

Jury is still out on the guy that has hit .296/.357/.521 over 3 seasons, but Francisco Lindor is already the second best player in the AL after roughly a season? Lol, ok pal.

[Quin]

This thread is a dumpster fire.

[caulfield12]

So you start a thread about another team to compare it to our GM. I mention another team that has absolutely failed to lock up its young pre-arb guys. Instead you change the subject and mention a ton of players completely off-base of what you were just talking about, except for one. Your point was that Hahn somehow was a failure for the 4 or 5 guys he had locked up early, but apparently Epstein with one was a genius, because he did exactly the opposite of what you just said Hahn should have been doing, because the GM in Cleveland did it.

 

Yep, par for the course.

 

 

And which players should the Cubs lock up?

 

You never answered that question. This has nothing to do with the Cubs, and everything to do with beating the Indians (and Royals, for that matter).

 

The Cubs extended Rizzo, and none of their other players (except for Rondon/Arrieta and Bryant) could even be possibly considered for extensions at this point.

 

And extending Arrieta isn't anything like extending Q and Sale, because the odds of him having a catastrophic injury and the wear and tear on his body can't justify the Cubs committing $175-200 million when they can simply trade from their cache of young position players to replace him much more cheaply.

 

 

I never said Hahn was a failure, I simply said that LOTS OF OTHER TEAMS IN BASEBALL HAVE DONE AND ARE DOING THE SAME THING that we for some reason consider revolutionary with the White Sox.

 

I gave an example from one of our division rivals, but I could have gone through lots of other teams and provided examples.

 

 

 

I never said Epstein was a genius. You did. Just now. And I never brought the Cubs into it, either.

 

The whole point of advancing to the playoffs means you have to go through the AL Central. If other teams are doing the same thing as Rick Hahn does, but to even more effect because the scope will eventually be 8-12 players, HOW WILL RICK HAHN MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE IN ORDER TO COMPETE? What ideas or strategy does he have at his disposal? What evidence is there that he's up to the job?

 

Finally, if Kris Bryant doesn't stay with the Cubs on a long term extension, it will be fairly shocking. Boras knows he's going to be more valuable to the city of Chicago, especially on a World Series winner....just like Lebron in Cleveland. Now with Carlos Rodon, can anyone come up with an argument why he's more valuable to the White Sox than any other team in baseball, and why he would have more marketing/financial opportunities remaining on the Sox, compared to other teams?

 

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

Jury is still out on the guy that has hit .296/.357/.521 over 3 seasons, but Francisco Lindor is already the second best player in the AL after roughly a season? Lol, ok pal.

 

 

Try trading Abreu for Lindor...and see how quickly the dial tone would be ringing in your ears.

 

 

I said he WILL be the 2nd best player in the AL...maybe not today, but within the next 18-24 months. He's not going to put up huge offensive numbers, but in terms of WAR, defense, instincts, baserunning, there won't be a better young middle infielder.

 

Correa will hit more homers, but isn't in the same ballpark with Lindor defensively. I suppose that I could have said 2nd/3rd to hedge my bet a bit, because there's an equaly strong argument for Manny Machado, as long as he stays healthy.

[caulfield12]

Um, the entire premise of this thread is that Hahn does this one thing well but also, so does this other guy.

 

 

Except the other guy does do something else quite well.

 

He develops Latin America and he has a farm system chock full of prospects operating on a budget 75% of what the White Sox have, with the lowest or second lowest attendance in the AL each and every season.

 

 

And all I'm doing is counter-arguing Dick Allen's assertion that Robin Ventura shouldn't be fired because he might be the next Torre/LaRussa/Leyland/Bobby Cox.

 

So, following that string logically, that means Rick Hahn isn't providing him the talent to realize his potential. And, if Rick Hahn can do only ONE thing well, something that many other GM's can also do...where's our competitive niche or advantage over the rest of baseball? What else is Rick Hahn effective at or one of the Top 10 GM's in the game at doing?

 

The strength of our organization used to be developing left-handed pitching (Buehrle/Danks/Sale/Q/Rodon/Santiago), but many are down on Don Cooper right now. That leaves only one aspect remaining, keeping players healthy, strength&conditioning/Herm Schneider.

 

 

[caulfield12]

The Indians actually were one of the pioneers of this type of strategy, and have been doing it since the Mark Shapiro days.

 

 

Yes, I mentioned this in my OP.

 

Goes back to that mid 90's juggernaut team with Belle, Lofton, Manny Ramirez, Vizquel, Baerga, Colon, Nagy, etc.

[Quin]

Except the other guy does do something else quite well.

 

He develops Latin America and he has a farm system chock full of prospects operating on a budget 75% of what the White Sox have, with the lowest or second lowest attendance in the AL each and every season.

 

 

And all I'm doing is counter-arguing Dick Allen's assertion that Robin Ventura shouldn't be fired because he might be the next Torre/LaRussa/Leyland/Bobby Cox.

 

So, following that string logically, that means Rick Hahn isn't providing him the talent to realize his potential. And, if Rick Hahn can do only ONE thing well, something that many other GM's can also do...where's our competitive niche or advantage over the rest of baseball? What else is Rick Hahn effective at or one of the Top 10 GM's in the game at doing?

 

The strength of our organization used to be developing left-handed pitching (Buehrle/Danks/Sale/Q/Rodon/Santiago), but many are down on Don Cooper right now. That leaves only one aspect remaining, keeping players healthy, strength&conditioning/Herm Schneider.

 

The entire premise of this thread was that Rick Hahn's contract negotiating skills weren't great cause the Indians have good contracts.

[caulfield12]

And I chose CLE for other reasons, besides them being in first place:

 

1) Their fanbase has been screwed over more often than ours even, with two complete rebuilds to suffer through (we had White Flag and 1994)...and they arguably had the best and most loyal fans in baseball from the mid 90's through that 2001 team

 

2) They have lower revenues/broadcast rights deal by far than the White Sox

 

3) They still managed to make the playoffs in 2013 despite all these competitive disadvantages

 

4) They still managed to make hiring a top manager a priority, despite limited resources

 

The GM never made any excuses. They messed up BADLY with Swisher and Bourn, but managed to mitigate those losses somewhat and move on. The GM doesn't blame the fans for only having 25 cents to spend, not $1, because he understands the history and the heartbreak those fans have been subjected to. The ONLY choice is to build a winning team despite all the obstacles. Their organization has a much more positive and uplifting atmosphere now as a result, because everyone's pulling in the same direction and they can play off their underdog status.

[caulfield12]

The entire premise of this thread was that Rick Hahn's contract negotiating skills weren't great cause the Indians have good contracts.

 

 

No, it's that other teams are equally adept at that, and do lots of other things much better than we do.

 

You can read it that way, we can even agree Sale/Eaton/Q represent the 3 greatest contracts in the modern era of sports history if you want to go that far in praising Hahn, but it's not nearly enough when you need 25 players to win.

 

It's not even enough to beat any of the four teams in the AL Central since 2008.

 

 

In everyone collectively jumping to defend Rick Hahn's honor, nobody has developed a cohesive argument for what he's actually good at. Saying the bulk of his moves made sense at the time they were made might be a good legal argument at Harvard, but it doesn't matter in the results-oriented world of professional sports.

Edited June 22, 2016 by caulfield12