Brexit

[farmteam]

Here's what I really want to know: How many Clash "Should I Stay or Should I Go" jokes were made in the run-up to the vote?

[Y2HH]

From U of I's public affairs site:

 

Freshmen

2013-2014* $11,834

2012-2013* $11,636

2011-2012* $11,104

2010-2011* $10,386

2009-2010* $9,484

2008-2009* $9,242

2007-2008* $8,440

2006-2007* $7,708

2005-2006* $7,042

2004-2005* $6,460

2003-2004 $5,568

2002-2003 $5,302

2001-2002 $4,410

2000-2001 $3,724

1999-2000 $3,546

1998-1999 $3,408

1997-1998 $3,308

1996-1997 $3,150

1995-1996 $3,000

1994-1995 $2,760

1993-1994 $2,486

1992-1993 $2,486

1991-1992 $2,236

1990-1991 $2,130

1989-1990 $2,130

1988-1989 $2,070

1987-1988 $1,470

1986-1987 $1,406

 

 

Yikes.

 

A lot of this upward pressure comes from us. Politicians, parents, etc. We've allowed ourselves to become convinced that unless you have a college degree you cannot make a living in this world, and thus we've told our kids its ok to go deeply into debt in order to furnish that degree, regardless of what useless subject matter it's in. And by the way, it's completely untrue. There are many trades that require no such degree, and quite often pay better...but when you live in a nation that puts zero emphasis on those trades...what you get is no trade schools.

 

Let me be clear, there is nothing wrong with going to school if it's being done for the right reasons, which will equate to a return on that investment. That's what higher education is. It's investing in your own future. And we need to start treating it like any other investment. Don't invest in garbage. I'm sure every Lawyer would love to graduate from Harvard Law, unfortunately, they don't have the space, and some of us cannot afford it. And that's ok...there are other schools out there, and plenty of great lawyers that came from them.

 

We've created an entire financial product system (student debt) to furnish these degrees, which are often worth less than the money invested in them. That's called a poor investment. The more people that do something that has a finite amount of space (schools), a finite amount of those qualified to teach (teachers), the more upward pricing pressure that's created. And since we've successfully convinced every young person out there they need to go to college even if they cannot afford it...well, this is the result. Upward pricing pressure.

 

What this country needs to do is turn some focus on trade schools. Not everyone will become a doctor or a chemical engineer...and that's ok. Carpenters, plumbers, electricians are also necessary, now more than ever since so few are qualified to do these jobs anymore. What we need, to counteract the upward pricing pressure on higher education is competition in the form of trade schools. There is nothing wrong with being a hair dresser, or a construction worker. There is, however, something very wrong with parents telling kids it's ok to borrow 100,000 dollars for a degree in human resources.

 

We also need to tell kids to go to an in state school they can afford, or perhaps even start by going to a jr. college to knock out some of the prerequsits without having to borrow a bunch of money in order to do it. We're doing our children a great disservice by having them graduate tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, starting their lives so deep in a financial hole they feel like they're drowning.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

There isn't exactly a ton of available space in trade schools, and job prospects for someone with no advanced education or trade training are pretty poor.

[StrangeSox]

Britain confronts a wave of racist incidents after the Brexit vote

[ptatc]

I'm curious on your cost of school statistics. I graduated just over 10 years ago, and tuition at my school has doubled (so can't even fathom the 50% increase as what I'm talking about is largely relative to the entire cal state system...I didn't go to a private school). I'll just look at my alma mater over the past 10 years. Today's annual tuition is 5,472. The last year I went there (05/06), it was $2520 (and that was up a good chunk from when I started in 02).

 

http://calstate.edu/budget/student-fees/fe...n-history.shtml

Sorry, my bad on that one. I went back and looked and I read the charts wrong.

 

Please ignore that whole scenario.

[EvilMonkey]

There isn't exactly a ton of available space in trade schools, and job prospects for someone with no advanced education or trade training are pretty poor.

Mike Rowe would disagree with you. He is always highlighting job fields in the trades that are desperate for help.

 

http://www.mikeroweworks.com/_pdf/mrwfrecips.pdf

 

[EvilMonkey]

Britain confronts a wave of racist incidents after the Brexit vote

As they (as well as the rest of the EU) ignored and swept under the rug the racist incidents committed by its many 'visitors' from outside the EU.

[StrangeSox]

Mike Rowe would disagree with you. He is always highlighting job fields in the trades that are desperate for help.

 

http://www.mikeroweworks.com/_pdf/mrwfrecips.pdf

 

I know multiple people who have gone into the trades, both friends and family. It can take years on the wait lists to get into places like the pipefitters or electrician schools.

[StrangeSox]

As they (as well as the rest of the EU) ignored and swept under the rug the racist incidents committed by its many 'visitors' from outside the EU.

 

A lot of the racist backlash in Britain is fueled by anti-Polish sentiment.

[EvilMonkey]

I know multiple people who have gone into the trades, both friends and family. It can take years on the wait lists to get into places like the pipefitters or electrician schools.

And yet thousands of jobs are unfilled for lack of people to do them.

[Y2HH]

I know multiple people who have gone into the trades, both friends and family. It can take years on the wait lists to get into places like the pipefitters or electrician schools.

 

That's the point I'm making.

 

The government should have programs to expand these schools, or create their own programs to compete with them, as this type of investment is in the best interest of the country and it's citizens. Instead, we pile on the student debt load for college degrees that are often worth less in the job market than the tuition paid to get them...because college or bust!

[bmags]

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/29/12052494/brex...u-euro-disaster

 

I saw his tweet yesterday wondering whether we would look back in 30 years and view countries leaving the Euro (hypothetically) as equal to when they left the gold standard to get out of great depression.

 

As they move toward greater integration, you have to wonder whether there will be an alt movement to pressure to get rid of Euro.

[illinilaw08]

That's the point I'm making.

 

The government should have programs to expand these schools, or create their own programs to compete with them, as this type of investment is in the best interest of the country and it's citizens. Instead, we pile on the student debt load for college degrees that are often worth less in the job market than the tuition paid to get them...because college or bust!

 

I don't disagree with this, but expanding trade schools and making college more affordable aren't mutually exclusive. At this point, if you don't learn a trade, or go to college, the path to a decent wage is as difficult as it has been since before WW2.

[bmags]

That's the point I'm making.

 

The government should have programs to expand these schools, or create their own programs to compete with them, as this type of investment is in the best interest of the country and it's citizens. Instead, we pile on the student debt load for college degrees that are often worth less in the job market than the tuition paid to get them...because college or bust!

 

Couple thoughts on this:

- In general, I think parents pushing their kids to college even with the debt is a better plan, it allows more room to pivot even with the debt

- I agree not everyone needs same book. Trades are great skills. But they are closed for a reason, a major one is it helps prop up cost of labor in those trades, and creates that attractive living.

- If we boost trades, it is imperative that nationwide states makea push to deregulate housing restrictions in dense areas to allow more people to live where more people live. Having 100 electricians in Mexico, Missouri isn't going to solve anything. We need to allow people to move where service work is higher, without carving out the gains from their higher productivity to their housing costs.

[StrangeSox]

That's the point I'm making.

 

The government should have programs to expand these schools, or create their own programs to compete with them, as this type of investment is in the best interest of the country and it's citizens. Instead, we pile on the student debt load for college degrees that are often worth less in the job market than the tuition paid to get them...because college or bust!

 

The "debt load for garbage degrees" applies to a lot of the private for-profit "trade schools" like Wyotech, unfortunately. There's always openings at those places, but they're expensive and might end up being useless. The trade schools I'm speaking of are the ones that are run by the trade unions.

[Y2HH]

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/29/12052494/brex...u-euro-disaster

 

I saw his tweet yesterday wondering whether we would look back in 30 years and view countries leaving the Euro (hypothetically) as equal to when they left the gold standard to get out of great depression.

 

As they move toward greater integration, you have to wonder whether there will be an alt movement to pressure to get rid of Euro.

 

I like how some are saying the Brexit "could trigger a euro financial crisis" as if the EU wasn't already mired in a financial crisis with multiple countries moving into insolvency if not outright being bankrupt. In many ways, I can't blame the UK from exiting, seeing as they have a 5% unemployment rate -- meaning their citizens are working -- meanwhile, Greece has a population that largely doesn't care about work and the UK's citizens get to pay money to float them.

 

I'd want out of that bulls*** deal, too.

[StrangeSox]

And yet thousands of jobs are unfilled for lack of people to do them.

 

There are always open jobs when unemployment approaches full employment levels, but I wonder how many of these "trade" jobs are like the ones we'd hear about back in 2010 or so. Manufacturers complaining that they couldn't find anyone to take all of these highly skilled jobs they were offering, but these jobs 1) required that you came in with your own training rather than learning on the job 2) were in middle-of-nowhere places and 3) offered low wages, like $10-12/hour for skilled work.

[Y2HH]

I like how some are saying the Brexit "could trigger a euro financial crisis" as if the EU wasn't already mired in a financial crisis with multiple countries moving into insolvency if not outright being bankrupt. In many ways, I can't blame the UK from exiting, seeing as they have a 5% unemployment rate -- meaning their citizens are working -- meanwhile, Greece has a population that largely doesn't care about work and the UK's citizens get to pay money to float them.

 

I'd want out of that bulls*** deal, too.

 

Replying to my own comment.

 

I really should be more fair to the wonderful fantastic Greek people out there. No, not all of them are lazy, non-working slugs. A lot of people in Greece would probably love to work, as a matter of fact, they tend to work long hours...just not super productive ones. The issue is a lot of these nations have different views on work ethic, retirement, etc...you can't have one nation with people retiring at 50 and another at 65. Otherwise one nation ends up floating the other...which is essentially what's happening across the EU, and some of these "richer" nations are growing weary of this.

 

I've long thought it was a bad system destined for collapse...and this is just one of them admitting it.

[bmags]

I like how some are saying the Brexit "could trigger a euro financial crisis" as if the EU wasn't already mired in a financial crisis with multiple countries moving into insolvency if not outright being bankrupt. In many ways, I can't blame the UK from exiting, seeing as they have a 5% unemployment rate -- meaning their citizens are working -- meanwhile, Greece has a population that largely doesn't care about work and the UK's citizens get to pay money to float them.

 

I'd want out of that bulls*** deal, too.

 

https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS

 

Greece's annual hrs worked per worker much higher than enterprising Germans and English. Devaluing their currency would allow them to pay back their debt faster and cheapen their exports and increase unemployment.

 

That has a much larger impact on unemployment rate than personal industriousness.

[StrangeSox]

re: 5% unemployment in Britain, that's true, but similar to good top line unemployment numbers here, a lot of the jobs that have come back aren't particularly good or well-paying jobs, and much of the economic gains of the past several years (decades?) have been heavily concentrated in the financial sector.

 

I don't know that the Euro being flawed necessarily means that the EU as a whole is flawed.

[Y2HH]

https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS

 

Greece's annual hrs worked per worker much higher than enterprising Germans and English. Devaluing their currency would allow them to pay back their debt faster and cheapen their exports and increase unemployment.

 

That has a much larger impact on unemployment rate than personal industriousness.

 

Longer hours, yes...but not very productive ones. Greece's productivity is actually pretty low in comparison to others who work less hours.

[bmags]

Replying to my own comment.

 

I really should be more fair to the wonderful fantastic Greek people out there. No, not all of them are lazy, non-working slugs. A lot of people in Greece would probably love to work, as a matter of fact, they tend to work long hours...just not super productive ones. The issue is a lot of these nations have different views on work ethic, retirement, etc...you can't have one nation with people retiring at 50 and another at 65. Otherwise one nation ends up floating the other...which is essentially what's happening across the EU, and some of these "richer" nations are growing weary of this.

 

I've long thought it was a bad system destined for collapse...and this is just one of them admitting it.

 

There are a lot of things negative, but a lot positive too. There are a lot of countries with advanced economies tucked into a tiny corner. Trade would be unberaable without a union liike this. The EU has allowed workers to flow to more productive countries, but when that happens, they need to fix the system where the countries providing the capital are not receiving any of that "export".

 

A lot of their problems would also be alleviated if they just had more kids.

[bmags]

Longer hours, yes...but not very productive ones. Greece's productivity is actually pretty low in comparison to others who work less hours.

 

No doubt, but devaluing would help with that. But it also goes against the idea that the brits were bailing out lazy greeks.

[Y2HH]

No doubt, but devaluing would help with that. But it also goes against the idea that the brits were bailing out lazy greeks.

 

It's a common European stereotype that most countries in the EU consider Greece lazy.

 

While this story/poll is a few years old, it highlights this feeling among the EU:

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archiv...-the-eu/257764/

[ptatc]

I don't disagree with this, but expanding trade schools and making college more affordable aren't mutually exclusive. At this point, if you don't learn a trade, or go to college, the path to a decent wage is as difficult as it has been since before WW2.

I don't see this as a viable option unless the federal government want to dump money into the public university system. The latest proposal from the state of illinois is to send 82% of the FY 2015 budget to the universities, this on top of not sending 70% of last years budget. With the states not sending state schools money, they are essentially driving up the cost of public education.