Pearce and Norris

[Dunt]

Both on bad teams, both in positions of need, both massive upgrades over what we have. The team is back to playing good ball, but they are paper thin right now. The bullpen needs work, but I think Burdi is up sooner than later. I really think they need to address C and DH ASAP. Avila is coming around but Navarro has been brutal. Would Norris even cost that much? The years of control might make him a little more expensive, but he's not lighting the world on fire. His defense would be a huge boost though and I think his SLG would look good at the Cell.

[Jose Abreu]

Norris has been trash, I'd honestly stick with Avila/Navarro

[Dunt]

Norris has been trash, I'd honestly stick with Avila/Navarro

 

Massive pitch framing upgrade with a career best ISO and a career worst BABIP. I think he easily outperforms our current catching tandem.

[Jose Abreu]

Also Pearce just hit the DL and is expected to miss 3 weeks

[Dunt]

Also Pearce just hit the DL and is expected to miss 3 weeks

 

Oof, didn't see that. Scratch that idea then.

[Jose Abreu]

Massive pitch framing upgrade with a career best ISO and a career worst BABIP. I think he easily outperforms our current catching tandem.

The pitch framing would be a clear upgrade, but his OBP is ridiculously low and Avila's is actually very solid. As for BABIP, I have developed less and less respect for that stat after watching Todd Frazier hit this season and seeing his BABIP in the .180s/.190s- his contact is seemingly often weak choppers now, so of course his BABIP should be quite low

[Chicago White Sox]

If we're serious about competing, the #1 priority should be adding an impact OF. That gets Shuck out of the lineup right away and eventually allows us to get Avi out of the lineup when Jackson and/or Morneau are available. Second on the list has to be a right-handed reliever. Those two moves are musts in order to compete IMO.

 

I'm all for looking for a catcher upgrade, especially if it's a guy with some control, but it's a lesser need at this point. Avila has really turned it around as of late and makes me feel better about situation. I do think Navarro is a problem with his horrible pitch framing, especially if he's not going to hit enough to offset it. Just don't think we can afford to give up much for an upgrade when we have bigger fish to fry.

[caulfield12]

Agreed.

 

They can't wait on Burdi, or expect him to make it up this year...at least counting on him pitching the 7th. Everyone that we draft is not Chris Sale. Rodon has been on a slower track, and we shouldn't rush Burdi because of a current gaping hole in the bullpen.

 

#1 priority has to be the outfield bat that gets Shuck/Garcia off the field ASAP...eventually, that player can DH or play CF and Jackson becomes the 4th outfielder, but there's no way to compete without both of those needs being filled.

 

Jackson's likely at LEAST 3 weeks away...they can't afford to fall to 10 games back and 6th-8th in the WC race.

 

They also can't afford to wait on Justin Morneau...who may or may not be able to make a contribution this season.

 

 

The obvious problem with all of this is the trade market is still not quite developing, so there's that significant risk of overpaying...like we already might have done with James Shields (contract-wise, not so worried about Tatis and Johnson).

 

 

[elrockinMT]

Massive pitch framing upgrade with a career best ISO and a career worst BABIP. I think he easily outperforms our current catching tandem.

 

Somebody started this conversation about pitch framing and now it's the rage on this board and we hear it all the time. I have never heard so much about it before although it sure helps on close pitches. You need to throw good pitches nipping the zone to be worried about pitch framing. Seems our hurlers aren't always that close. You need to throw strikes! The two catchers we have are doing a pretty darn good job defensively.

[Jose Abreu]

Somebody started this conversation about pitch framing and now it's the rage on this board and we hear it all the time. I have never heard so much about it before although it sure helps on close pitches. You need to throw good pitches nipping the zone to be worried about pitch framing. Seems our hurlers aren't always that close. You need to throw strikes! The two catchers we have are doing a pretty darn good job defensively.

Sale's called strike in zone percentage is down 13% from last year though. Framing is an issue.

[caulfield12]

It's incredibly unfortunate we didn't have anyone to trade for Ozuna of the Marlins.

 

He's quietly having a great season. Having him in CF would have solved so many problems. We'd be that DH bat short still. But a big what if for many teams. Michael Saunders. Trumbo. Desmond. Asdrubal Cabrera. Napoli. Daniel Murphy. Jay Bruce. Braun. Beltran. CarGo. Fowler. Zobrist. Wil Myers. Lucroy. Longoria. Blackmon. F. Freeman. Reynolds. Neil Walker. Votto. Chris Carter. Luis Valbuena. Jean Segura. Yunel Escobar. Kris Davis. Matt Kemp. Martin Prado. John Jaso. Rajai Davis. John Jay. Aaron Hill. Melvin Upton. Colby Rasmus. Chase Utley. Justin Bour.

 

 

Surely, Rick Hahn could have picked from ONE of those names.

Edited June 25, 2016 by caulfield12

[GreenSox]

Both on bad teams, both in positions of need, both massive upgrades over what we have. The team is back to playing good ball, but they are paper thin right now. The bullpen needs work, but I think Burdi is up sooner than later. I really think they need to address C and DH ASAP. Avila is coming around but Navarro has been brutal. Would Norris even cost that much? The years of control might make him a little more expensive, but he's not lighting the world on fire. His defense would be a huge boost though and I think his SLG would look good at the Cell.

Avilia is not a bad catcher. Norris is a terrible defensive catcher. Defensively both Sox catchers are playing exactly as advertised. If that's not good enough, why did Hahn sign them?

The position of need is starting pitching, centerfield and DH. Morneau might help DH. Jackson would help the defense immeasurably if he recovers.

 

Sox have to show a lot more in the W/L and spot in standings for more trades for "proven veterans" to make any sense.

Edited June 26, 2016 by GreenSox

[GGajewski18]

Avilia is not a bad catcher. Norris is a terrible defensive catcher. Defensively both Sox catchers are playing exactly as advertised. If that's not good enough, why did Hahn sign them?

The position of need is starting pitching, centerfield and DH. Morneau might help DH. Jackson would help the defense immeasurably if he recovers.

 

Sox have to show a lot more in the W/L and spot in standings for more trades for "proven veterans" to make any sense.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...=&players=0

 

At least look up the stats and metrics before you post garbage. Norris is also a top 5 pitch framer in the league.

[GreenSox]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...=&players=0

 

At least look up the stats and metrics before you post garbage. Norris is also a top 5 pitch framer in the league.

Fair enough. He's gotten better with San Diego. He was terrible with Oakland.

Avilia is a decent defensive catcher anyway, and the position is nowhere near the greatest need.

 

Surely, Rick Hahn could have picked from ONE of those names.

They did - they got Frazier. They got Jackson, who wasn't that different than several on the low-end of your list.

3 B prospects will get a lot of the names on that list...still will. 3 Bs got Frazier.

Sox just are just short on Bs

Edited June 26, 2016 by GreenSox

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Without looking up numbers what about a package of Reddick and Voght?

[caulfield12]

What are you willing to give up for Reddick and Vogt?

 

That's putting a lot of eggs in one basket, but at least it's a direction....not just standing pat. If Hahn wants to save his job, he's going to have to argue for a move like that or there's no way they're going to compete for a wild card spot.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

What are you willing to give up for Reddick and Vogt?

 

That's putting a lot of eggs in one basket, but at least it's a direction....not just standing pat. If Hahn wants to save his job, he's going to have to argue for a move like that or there's no way they're going to compete for a wild card spot.

Not sure what the value of both are I just thought if it's an upgrade over Navarro ya make it. That's just it. I want a direction not in between. Can't stand pat this season.

 

 

Let me take a stab at this. Adams, Danish, Sanchez, catching prospect, couple other low prospect throw ins. Now maybe beane would laugh and hang up I don't know.

Edited June 27, 2016 by SouthSideSale

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Given the need for a bat and relief help next to the lack of tradable assets the Sox have to use I find it hard to believe they'll trade for a catcher. Even more so now with Avila's play of late.

 

I'd like Pearce though. I wanted him in the offseason. Sox went with Avi Garcia instead.

It was more of killing two birds with one stone so-to-speak. Avila has seemed to be picking it up which is very good for this team.

[caulfield12]

I suppose we can't completely discount the possibility of riding Avila's currently hot bat for awhile at DH...the problem is that forces Navarro into the line-up too.

 

If you catch Avila, you'll probably wear down his offensive ability over time. Catch Navarro, the defense/pitch-framing/throwing sucks.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

I suppose we can't completely discount the possibility of riding Avila's currently hot bat for awhile at DH...the problem is that forces Navarro into the line-up too.

 

If you catch Avila, you'll probably wear down his offensive ability over time. Catch Navarro, the defense/pitch-framing/throwing sucks.

I'm against that because of Avilas injury history.

 

 

I'm just not sure I'd give up Fulmer for Cargo. I'm sure it'll have to start there. We don't have a farm system teams drool over.

 

Bruce isn't coming here. Reds wanted nothing to do with our prospects and Dodgers are involved. So they'll surely outbid us.

 

Reddick was my guy at the beginning of the season. Hopefully his injury took some of his value down not sure if that's even possible. I know Oakland is going to try and get a deal done soon if they can't they may move him.

 

Lucroy is another name I've seen floated. I'm sure that package would have to be substantial.

Edited June 27, 2016 by SouthSideSale

[caulfield12]

At this point, Beltran and Bruce are probably the best options for DH (and wouldn't require giving up prospects in the Top 60-75)...meaning Carson Fulmer would be off the table.

 

Bruce shouldn't be out in the field anymore, but that's fine as long as Austin Jackson comes back after the ASB and is close to 100%.

 

There's an option for 2017, so they could decide over the next 3 months if they wanted to exercise it.

 

 

Another pitcher Hahn should have targeted, and is in the last year of his contract...Jeremy Hellickson of the Phillies. That would have been the much smarter move than James Shields, IMO. Of course, one of the reasons Shields was brought on board was uncertainty about filling out the rotation in 2017 and 2018 (beyond Fulmer and Hansen), and the upcoming weak free agent class.

 

[caulfield12]

At this point, Beltran and Bruce are probably the best options for DH (and wouldn't require giving up prospects in the Top 60-75)...meaning Carson Fulmer would be off the table.

 

Bruce shouldn't be out in the field anymore, but that's fine as long as Austin Jackson comes back after the ASB and is close to 100%.

 

There's an option for 2017, so they could decide over the next 3 months if they wanted to exercise it.

 

 

Another pitcher Hahn should have targeted, and is in the last year of his contract...Jeremy Hellickson of the Phillies. That would have been the much smarter move than James Shields, IMO. Of course, one of the reasons Shields was brought on board was uncertainty about filling out the rotation in 2017 and 2018 (beyond Fulmer and Hansen), and the upcoming weak free agent class.

 

[FT35]

What are you willing to give up for Reddick and Vogt?

 

That's putting a lot of eggs in one basket, but at least it's a direction....not just standing pat. If Hahn wants to save his job, he's going to have to argue for a move like that or there's no way they're going to compete for a wild card spot.

 

We have to be careful because this is the type of deal people throw stones at if it doesn't pan out. Getting those 2 would likely cost us several pieces of our farm system. So now, Hahn needs to save his job by making a trade that everyone will accuse him of screwing up because Reddick and Vogt are vets?? Our fan base needs to pull on the same end of the rope in what they rake our management over the coals for. DO we want youth or do we want vets? The proven vet trades haven't worked out, but it seems like all the people who throw stones at management for making such deals, are the same ones calling for them to be made to save the guy's job! Hahn was a genius to land Samardzija--exactly the RHP starter that we needed--then Holy CRAP...Hahn is an idiot for trading pieces of our farm system to get a scrub like Samardzija. Hahn needs to find a way to land a proven starter like James Shields if he wants to save his job--then--we need to FIRE Hahn because he brings in losers like James Shields!

 

You can see it...Finally...Hahn makes a great deal to land Reddick and Vogt!!! Just what we needed!!! Then Vogt hits the DL the same week Reddick goes into a 3-25 slump and the masses prepare for a stoning and life without Carson Fulmer.

[Lip Man 1]

We have to be careful because this is the type of deal people throw stones at if it doesn't pan out. Getting those 2 would likely cost us several pieces of our farm system. So now, Hahn needs to save his job by making a trade that everyone will accuse him of screwing up because Reddick and Vogt are vets?? Our fan base needs to pull on the same end of the rope in what they rake our management over the coals for. DO we want youth or do we want vets? The proven vet trades haven't worked out, but it seems like all the people who throw stones at management for making such deals, are the same ones calling for them to be made to save the guy's job! Hahn was a genius to land Samardzija--exactly the RHP starter that we needed--then Holy CRAP...Hahn is an idiot for trading pieces of our farm system to get a scrub like Samardzija. Hahn needs to find a way to land a proven starter like James Shields if he wants to save his job--then--we need to FIRE Hahn because he brings in losers like James Shields!

 

You can see it...Finally...Hahn makes a great deal to land Reddick and Vogt!!! Just what we needed!!! Then Vogt hits the DL the same week Reddick goes into a 3-25 slump and the masses prepare for a stoning and life without Carson Fulmer.

 

Post has a lot of truth in it, in my opinion. That's what happens though when the organizational philosophy seems to be muddled and fans generally have no idea if the team is "rebuilding," "going for it" and so forth.

 

In addition the Sox themselves have never really seemed willing to go all in, as in spend a tremendous amount of money on the farm system or raising the payroll high enough to get the top free agents when they become available.

 

They are caught between the proverbial "rock and a hard place..." and that filters down to the fan base.

 

Mark

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Post has a lot of truth in it, in my opinion. That's what happens though when the organizational philosophy seems to be muddled and fans generally have no idea if the team is "rebuilding," "going for it" and so forth.

 

In addition the Sox themselves have never really seemed willing to go all in, as in spend a tremendous amount of money on the farm system or raising the payroll high enough to get the top free agents when they become available.

 

They are caught between the proverbial "rock and a hard place..." and that filters down to the fan base.

 

Mark

I just want a direction for this club. Want to rebuild? Be my guest. Go all in? Fine whatever don't waste the careers of Sale, Q, Abreu and Eaton.