Tim Anderson

[southsider2k5]

Still think it needs to be said every time. Just because you said it once for accuracy sake doesn't mean you can leave out the details every time after that. It's misleading. All of a sudden it becomes just Semien (he) instead of a they and a guy who sucked for 1 year with all kinds of hopes he could be extended just becomes a #2 .

 

The argument around here used to be ( Semiens 1st year with Oakland)the Sox gave up nothing Semien blows, he can't field, Bassitt and Phegley are fodder. Now it's a different tune all by the shortsighted who somehow can't grasp the fact that when you give up 15 years of control for 1 year ,prospects have a chance to get better and organizational depth is pretty important .What a shocker .

 

The "15 years of control" thing is also pretty trite. Just because you have control of a guy for a long time, doesn't make him worth controlling. I mean we got years of control out of a lot of guys. Would you feel bad about giving up 5 years of control for Leury Garcia? How about Scott Carroll? The only time that matter is if you don't have another player who is able to give you what that player is giving you if the goal is to compete. Otherwise you enter the MLB hell of perpetual rebuilding. As angry as Sox fans are about their missed playoff run recently, would you really feel better about a few decades, but a lot of player control? Somehow I bet the novelty would wear off within a few months, just like it did when we did the quick rebuild work in 2014. Heck, people have already started to pretend that we weren't rebuilding those years and are holding it against management as if they were trying to compete the whole time.

[Kyyle23]

Who were their future 2B and 3B at that time?

 

you seriously have named them multiple times in this thread. the pool of Sanchez/Davidson/Saladino/Anderson/Johnson were all thought to be possible replacements or trade chips for replacements.

 

You are just arguing anymore to see yourself argue, with hindsight points that change from sentence to sentence.

[Dick Allen]

Who were their future 2B and 3B at that time?

As everyone else has said, if the deal is Semien and pieces (Webb/Bassitt/Beck/Johnson/Davidson, etc.) then you have to do it. But not if you include Anderson, Montas and Hawkins.

 

Then the White Sox would be left scrambling at 2B and/or the RH complement to Gillaspie.

 

Would they sign another player for one year or do they gamble that Micah Johnson's ready? Do they truly believe Sanchez can be close to league average at 2B if they deem Johnson not ready until at least mid-season?

 

This post has been edited by caulfield12: Dec 8, 2014 -> 08:57 PM

[FT35]

It's very possible that the A's asked for either Semien or Anderson to be in the deal for Shark. Do you think we made the right decision?

[Dick Allen]

No mention of the Sox "giving up on Semien" here. And there even is a James Shields mention.

 

 

Dec 2, 2014 -> 10:39 PM

 

Post #902

 

 

 

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I'm not even sure giving up what could be an elite closer in Montas for Samardzija is a good move, because you tack on $10 million in spending and you're left with only $10-15 million more for LF and the bullpen. (Of course, we'd have to spend that money anyway on a FA pitcher if we're really serious about competing.)

 

It definitely makes the White Sox competitive in 2015. The problem is that they would still be at least two players away and mortgaging the future for a player they might at best have a 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 chance of re-signing.

 

Seemingly, they have to target a pitcher they're going to control for a minimum of two and maximum of 4 years, as I don't think we'll see them go five years with a pitcher any time soon. (This is where a James Shields COULD make sense, but at $70-75 million for 3 years sense? Probably not.)

 

The draft pick compensation isn't SO helpful either, because his impact might not even be felt until after that competitive window has already closed.

 

 

I wouldn't trade Anderson, Rodon or Montas. On the fence with Hawkins (for the same reason they're holding out hope with Viciedo, POWER). I'd be okay with anyone else going, including Semien, M.Johnson or Danish.

 

[Eminor3rd]

you seriously have named them multiple times in this thread. the pool of Sanchez/Davidson/Saladino/Anderson/Johnson were all thought to be possible replacements or trade chips for replacements.

 

You are just arguing anymore to see yourself argue, with hindsight points that change from sentence to sentence.

 

Oh right, forgot Saladino too.

[Kyyle23]

Oh right, forgot Saladino too.

 

Thats ok, I forgot Leury lol. Wasnt sure if Trey M-alphabet should have been included in that group

[Dick Allen]

Also it appears Caulfield himself gave up on Marcus Semien:

 

I remember five years ago we all considered Jhonny Peralta a statue at SS and definitely a 3B/DH and he's since had a career renaissance in more ways than one. Sometimes players can and do improve defensively.

 

Still would be hesitant to throw Semien out there for 145+ games at SS and expect him to have less than 35-40 errors.

 

[caulfield12]

you seriously have named them multiple times in this thread. the pool of Sanchez/Davidson/Saladino/Anderson/Johnson were all thought to be possible replacements or trade chips for replacements.

 

You are just arguing anymore to see yourself argue, with hindsight points that change from sentence to sentence.

 

 

But how can we honestly say Semien was traded "out of depth" when none of those players were clear/sure-fire/ready-to-go replacements at either 2B or 3B?

 

They were possibilities. Actually, you'd have to believe the White Sox valued Conor Gillaspie and Gordon Beckham more at 3B based upon their actions (or lack thereof). Isn't that also part of the reason Emilio Bonifacio was acquired, to share time at 2B and give Micah Johnson some competition (PR/outfield, 3B, etc.)

 

We said all along that if you merged Saladino/Micah/Carlos/Leury into ONE player, then you might have a major league regular. Saladino was also coming off an injury that was going to limit him heading into 2015 (at least there was the idea he wouldn't be ready to start the season or even maybe be ready to go in May).

 

Trey wasn't even close to the majors (he still isn't 1 1/2 years later) and Davidson had a 644 OPS in AAA, so it would have been nearly impossible to project him as a starter coming into 2015.

 

 

[GreenSox]

I would still trade unproven prospects for proven MLB pitching. If the A's really wanted Semien, so be it. He was unproven and the Sox needed a RHP starter to go with Sale, Q and Rodon.

But what they did was trade "unproven prospects" for ONE YEAR of a major league pitcher; and this was a 73 win team that no matter how many "proven veterans" were stacked onto the team was unlikely to contend.

That's the kind of move that 82-86 win teams make to get over the top. Not 73 win teams that need to build a core.

Under this approach, Hahn, were he the GM of the Giants, would have traded away 1/2 of his all-star infield. Brandon Crawford didn't hit a lick his first THREE years with the Giants.

 

And Caufield is right...the Sox really don't give non-highly touted prospects much of a chance. Micah was done after 3 weeks; couldn't wait to move Tracye and Semien. Saladino and Sanchez got what have to be considered lengthy auditions for this organization (but not for others) and were jettisoned back to utility or AAA roles. Cooper has jettisoned pitchers who can pitch (but who struggled in their 3 appearance auditions). This is not the way to build an organization. Yes, the Sox had some middle infield excess (still do really). So why not use it to get, say, a young OF? That's how we got Eaton...some young starting pitching for a YOUNG outfielder.

 

The Giants are a good team to emulate. Constantly improving their organization. Never have the touted systems, but accurately evaluate their own players and are willing to develop them. The Whitesox have a long way to go re talent evaluation and development and organization building.

 

Edited July 13, 2016 by GreenSox

[Dick Allen]

But how can we honestly say Semien was traded "out of depth" when none of those players were clear/sure-fire/ready-to-go replacements at either 2B or 3B?

 

They were possibilities. Actually, you'd have to believe the White Sox valued Conor Gillaspie and Gordon Beckham more at 3B based upon their actions (or lack thereof). Isn't that also part of the reason Emilio Bonifacio was acquired, to share time at 2B and give Micah Johnson some competition (PR/outfield, 3B, etc.)

 

We said all along that if you merged Saladino/Micah/Carlos/Leury into ONE player, then you might have a major league regular. Saladino was also coming off an injury that was going to limit him heading into 2015 (at least there was the idea he wouldn't be ready to start the season or even maybe be ready to go in May).

 

Trey wasn't even close to the majors (he still isn't 1 1/2 years later) and Davidson had a 644 OPS in AAA, so it would have been nearly impossible to project him as a starter coming into 2015.

It's a trade that was made that you said you would make at the time. The posts are all there and there are even more. You are basically now arguing with yourself.

[Kyyle23]

But how can we honestly say Semien was traded "out of depth" when none of those players were clear/sure-fire/ready-to-go replacements at either 2B or 3B?

 

They were possibilities. Actually, you'd have to believe the White Sox valued Conor Gillaspie and Gordon Beckham more at 3B based upon their actions (or lack thereof). Isn't that also part of the reason Emilio Bonifacio was acquired, to share time at 2B and give Micah Johnson some competition (PR/outfield, 3B, etc.)

 

We said all along that if you merged Saladino/Micah/Carlos/Leury into ONE player, then you might have a major league regular. Saladino was also coming off an injury that was going to limit him heading into 2015 (at least there was the idea he wouldn't be ready to start the season or even maybe be ready to go in May).

 

Trey wasn't even close to the majors (he still isn't 1 1/2 years later) and Davidson had a 644 OPS in AAA, so it would have been nearly impossible to project him as a starter coming into 2015.

 

Who is "we"?

 

Seriously, you are just making stuff up. Any time you are called out on your broad generalities or hindsight opinions you default to "well everyone said at the time..." Or "well other people on the board said it"

 

 

[caulfield12]

I guess that means you wouldn't want Andrus, Aybar, Bogaerts, Escobar, Jordy Mercer, Asdrubal Cabrera, Gregorious, Brad Miller or Alexei to play SS for your team, either?

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/po...true/order/true

 

 

Eight MLB shortstops have more errors, out of 26 qualified. Bogaerts, Russell, Story, Cozart and Ahmed all have 9, along with Semien. So that puts him right around the average.

 

First in total chances, over Lindor.

 

First in range factor.

 

 

But yeah, keep repeating the same mantra from last year that he's still terrible defensively when that case is no longer supportable by any credible evidence.

Edited July 13, 2016 by caulfield12

[Quin]

But how can we honestly say Semien was traded "out of depth" when none of those players were clear/sure-fire/ready-to-go replacements at either 2B or 3B?

They were possibilities. Actually, you'd have to believe the White Sox valued Conor Gillaspie and Gordon Beckham more at 3B based upon their actions (or lack thereof). Isn't that also part of the reason Emilio Bonifacio was acquired, to share time at 2B and give Micah Johnson some competition (PR/outfield, 3B, etc.)

 

We said all along that if you merged Saladino/Micah/Carlos/Leury into ONE player, then you might have a major league regular. Saladino was also coming off an injury that was going to limit him heading into 2015 (at least there was the idea he wouldn't be ready to start the season or even maybe be ready to go in May).

 

Trey wasn't even close to the majors (he still isn't 1 1/2 years later) and Davidson had a 644 OPS in AAA, so it would have been nearly impossible to project him as a starter coming into 2015.

 

Replacement? Semien was part of the group of no clear/sure-fire/ready-to-go replacements. He was the same group as Micah and Sanchez and all three of them couldn't play second.

[Eminor3rd]

But how can we honestly say Semien was traded "out of depth" when none of those players were clear/sure-fire/ready-to-go replacements at either 2B or 3B?

 

They were possibilities. Actually, you'd have to believe the White Sox valued Conor Gillaspie and Gordon Beckham more at 3B based upon their actions (or lack thereof). Isn't that also part of the reason Emilio Bonifacio was acquired, to share time at 2B and give Micah Johnson some competition (PR/outfield, 3B, etc.)

 

We said all along that if you merged Saladino/Micah/Carlos/Leury into ONE player, then you might have a major league regular. Saladino was also coming off an injury that was going to limit him heading into 2015 (at least there was the idea he wouldn't be ready to start the season or even maybe be ready to go in May).

 

Trey wasn't even close to the majors (he still isn't 1 1/2 years later) and Davidson had a 644 OPS in AAA, so it would have been nearly impossible to project him as a starter coming into 2015.

 

They had more players in the Majors or upper minors that could handle those positions than they had at any other position on the diamond, that what is meant by "out of depth."

[Dick Allen]

Caulfied is playing black jack. He has 16. The dealer has a face card showing. Caulfied is the last player, hits and its a queen. He busts. The dealer has 12 takes his hit and gets a 7.

 

I'm guessing he says he only said to take a hit because "the book" says to take a hit. He didn't really want to and expects to be paid on his bet.

[caulfield12]

Who is "we"?

 

Seriously, you are just making stuff up. Any time you are called out on your broad generalities or hindsight opinions you default to "well everyone said at the time..." Or "well other people on the board said it"

 

 

Okay, I'm sure Dick Allen can search through every past thread over a decade and find:

 

1) Those who thought Saladino could/should start at 3B/2B heading into 2015 (pretty limited to those who ONLY looked at his stats and not what actually happened to end his 2014 season).

 

2) Those who thought Micah Johnson could/should start at 2B.

 

3) Those who thought Carlos Sanchez could/should start at 2B/3B.

 

 

LOL.

 

Every time Hahn makes a mistake, the consistent defense is "a bunch of random people on a White Sox messageboard were in favor of the move at the time and felt it was logical, seemingly, therefore....there was nothing wrong with it."

 

Now how does that make any sense?

 

Since when should that be the standard or benchmark?

Edited July 13, 2016 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

I guess that means you wouldn't want Andrus, Aybar, Bogaerts, Escobar, Jordy Mercer, Asdrubal Cabrera, Gregorious, Brad Miller or Alexei to play SS for your team, either?

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/po...true/order/true

 

 

Eight MLB shortstops have more errors, out of 26 qualified. Bogaerts, Russell, Story, Cozart and Ahmed all have 9, along with Semien. So that puts him right around the average.

 

First in total chances, over Lindor.

 

First in range factor.

 

 

But yeah, keep repeating the same mantra from last year that he's still terrible defensively when that case is no longer supportable by any credible evidence.

Explain this

 

I wouldn't trade Anderson, Rodon or Montas. On the fence with Hawkins (for the same reason they're holding out hope with Viciedo, POWER). I'd be okay with anyone else going, including Semien, M.Johnson or Danish.

 

And this

 

As everyone else has said, if the deal is Semien and pieces (Webb/Bassitt/Beck/Johnson/Davidson, etc.) then you have to do it. But not if you include Anderson, Montas and Hawkins.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

But what they did was trade "unproven prospects" for ONE YEAR of a major league pitcher; and this was a 73 win team that no matter how many "proven veterans" were stacked onto the team was unlikely to contend.

That's the kind of move that 82-86 win teams make to get over the top. Not 73 win teams that need to build a core.

Under this approach, Hahn, were he the GM of the Giants, would have traded away 1/2 of his all-star infield. Brandon Crawford didn't hit a lick his first THREE years with the Giants.

 

And Caufield is right...the Sox really don't give non-highly touted prospects much of a chance. Micah was done after 3 weeks; couldn't wait to move Tracye and Semien. Saladino and Sanchez got what have to be considered lengthy auditions for this organization (but not for others) and were jettisoned back to utility or AAA roles. Cooper has jettisoned pitchers who can pitch (but who struggled in their 3 appearance auditions). This is not the way to build an organization. Yes, the Sox had some middle infield excess (still do really). So why not use it to get, say, a young OF? That's how we got Eaton...some young starting pitching for a YOUNG outfielder.

 

The Giants are a good team to emulate. Constantly improving their organization. Never have the touted systems, but accurately evaluate their own players and are willing to develop them. The Whitesox have a long way to go re talent evaluation and development and organization building.

 

I'm sorry man, but this post is way off. The Giants gave Brandon Crawford three years to develop? Oh, well the White Sox gave Gordon Beckham FIVE YEARS. For every Marcus Semien or Micah Johnson, there is an Avisail Garcia, Tyler Flowers, or Dayan Viciedo.

[bmags]

Let's do player a/player b (stole from SSS):

Player A: .242/.307/.477, 11 2B, 19 HR, 29 BB, 78 K, 109 OPS+

Player B: .213/.305/.476, 9 2B, 25 HR, 40 BB, 85 K, 110 OPS+

[caulfield12]

They had more players in the Majors or upper minors that could handle those positions than they had at any other position on the diamond, that what is meant by "out of depth."

 

 

They could have had 15-20 middle infielders under 6 years of control and it wouldn't matter one iota if none of them were major league regulars. 90-120 years of control!!! Amazing.

 

It also doesn't explain trading Thompson when they had zero depth behind him. If all of those infielders were such quality depth, they wouldn't have had Gillaspie/Beckham there ahead of them....and then traded for Todd Frazier the following off season.

[Dick Allen]

They could have had 15-20 middle infielders under 6 years of control and it wouldn't matter one iota if none of them were major league regulars. 90-120 years of control!!! Amazing.

 

It also doesn't explain trading Thompson when they had zero depth behind him. If all of those infielders were such quality depth, they wouldn't have had Gillaspie/Beckham there ahead of them....and then traded for Todd Frazier the following off season.

Yet you would have had no qualms about including Thompson in the Samardzija trade. It's in your posts for everyone to see.

[caulfield12]

Let's do player a/player b (stole from SSS):

Player A: .242/.307/.477, 11 2B, 19 HR, 29 BB, 78 K, 109 OPS+

Player B: .213/.305/.476, 9 2B, 25 HR, 40 BB, 85 K, 110 OPS+

 

A is Semien.

 

B is Frazier.

 

 

Surprised Trayce Thompson wasn't included. You're also not taking into account years of control/salary in 2016 and 2017.

 

Finally, almost everyone would agree that getting those numbers from SS/CF/C should be a priority before all other positions.

[caulfield12]

Yet you would have had no qualms about including Thompson in the Samardzija trade. It's in your posts for everyone to see.

 

 

Gee, that was at the end of the 2014 season.

 

SOMETHING DIFFERENT HAPPENED IN 2015....gee, I guess we shouldn't adjust our thinking in any way, shape or form as a result of new evidence, which should LOGICALLY be weighted more heavily than previous seasons.

Edited July 13, 2016 by caulfield12

[Quin]

We should have never signed Jermaine Dye. Magglio Ordonez was an All-Star more times and was homegrown. Just another failure by this front office.