Zach Burdi headed to Birmingham

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Im not sure where this going against the grain comes from. Many "experts" said before the draft that Burdi would be able to help a MLB pen this year.

 

Most teams will take a pitcher like fulmer and start him if nothing else to huild his arm up to handle an MLB pen load. The upside could be that he ends up bring a starter.

 

Rodon was considered one if thetop arms in the draft. The sox git him lower than most "experts" thought he would go.

 

The sox aren't doing anything different than what most teams would do.

 

I can't believe you a going after the sox on handling pitchers. If anything they do that fairly well.

It's about all they do well. I trust them with this.

[caulfield12]

Just seems that things are getting stale with Cooper.

 

Rodon seems to have hit a wall. Fulmer has struggled for major stretches. Adams' velocity is down significantly, as are his strikeouts.

 

Sometimes you outsmart everyone (see Chris Sale), but that's not necessarily an indicator of future success (turning projected relievers into starters), just as Anderson's success doesn't mean the White Sox can't ever develop position prospects despite a decades-long struggle in that area.

 

The White Sox do take more pitching risks than other organizations.

 

I do feel a lot of Cooper's reputation (recently) is based on Jose Quintana, and he's about as conventional/textbook as you get mechanically for a lefty. There weren't any major alterations with him from Day 1 (like they're currently going through w/ both Fulmer and Adams).

 

Still, Jordan Stephens is another ray of hope. These almost always pop up on the pitching side, where they have great development people (who have obviously also worked with Cooper for many years, the guys like Hasler, Burns and Perdew).

Edited July 6, 2016 by caulfield12

[ptatc]

Just seems that things are getting stale with Cooper.

 

Rodon seems to have hit a wall. Fulmer has struggled for major stretches. Adams' velocity is down significantly, as are his strikeouts.

 

Sometimes you outsmart everyone (see Chris Sale), but that's not necessarily an indicator of future success (turning projected relievers into starters), just as Anderson's success doesn't mean the White Sox can't ever develop position prospects despite a decades-long struggle in that area.

 

The White Sox do take more pitching risks than other organizations.

 

I do feel a lot of Cooper's reputation (recently) is based on Jose Quintana, and he's about as conventional/textbook as you get mechanically for a lefty. There weren't any major alterations with him from Day 1 (like they're currently going through w/ both Fulmer and Adams).

 

Still, Jordan Stephens is another ray of hope. These almost always pop up on the pitching side, where they have great development people (who have obviously also worked with Cooper for many years, the guys like Hasler, Burns and Perdew).

You do realize that Fulmer is in his first full season of pro ball and Adams is in his second year while being 20 y/o. Young pitchers do struggle. Just because they struggle does not mean you should give up on them.

 

Also, cooper has very little to do with them at this stage. That's more for the minor league pitching coordinator, Kirk Champion I believe, and their individual pitching coaches.

[tray]

Rodon seems to have hit a wall. Fulmer has struggled for major stretches. Adams' velocity is down significantly, as are his strikeouts.

 

Not too many top/middle of rotations starting pitchers in the majors at age 23. Rodon has been up and down but he has not "hit a wall" as though he cannot get better or is limited in his ability. Any evaluation of Fulmer at this point is premature. Adams is just a 20 year old kid. Not sure what point you are trying to make by lumping these different pitchers together.

 

[caulfield12]

You do realize that Fulmer is in his first full season of pro ball and Adams is in his second year while being 20 y/o. Young pitchers do struggle. Just because they struggle does not mean you should give up on them.

 

Also, cooper has very little to do with them at this stage. That's more for the minor league pitching coordinator, Kirk Champion I believe, and their individual pitching coaches.

 

 

Pretty sure it's Curt Hasler now. Champion got bumped up on the food chain.

[ptatc]

Pretty sure it's Curt Hasler now. Champion got bumped up on the food chain.

Ok. That is the guy you should criticize if you have a beef about the way the young guns are progressing.

[southsider2k5]

You do realize that Fulmer is in his first full season of pro ball and Adams is in his second year while being 20 y/o. Young pitchers do struggle. Just because they struggle does not mean you should give up on them.

 

Also, cooper has very little to do with them at this stage. That's more for the minor league pitching coordinator, Kirk Champion I believe, and their individual pitching coaches.

 

Some people just need something to complain about.

[caulfield12]

If it wasn't for those darned blue seats (meddling kids, see Scooby-Doo)...there'd be nothing to complain about.

 

GreenSox does have a point...if it wasn't for that stupid "all in" year in 2015, there wouldn't have been the need to push Rodon to start so quickly at the big league level. There are some possible parallels right now with Gordon Beckham's 2009 and 2010 seasons.

 

So the reason for the push wasn't because his change-up was ready, it was because of the Boras/free agency timetable.

 

(Interestingly, Nola also has been disappointing after his very strong start to 2016...so having passed on Rodon NOT to deal with Boras wouldn't have necessarily worked here either, as Nola was always the guy with the higher floor but lower, 2/3 starter, ceiling.)

 

But we'll never know how much more complete a pitcher Rodon would have been...we simply know from watching him that Rodon doesn't have much trust in his offspeed stuff, and/or hasn't learned a way to let up on his slider to give him another version of that pitch and to create that consistent 10+ mph differential off his fastball. What we're often getting now are low 90's fastballs with a mid 80's slider and that 5-7 differential just isn't working at all. Not when he won't or can't throw a curve/change/Sale slurve in the low 80's/upper 70's.

Edited July 6, 2016 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

If it wasn't for those darned blue seats (meddling kids, see Scooby-Doo)...there'd be nothing to complain about.

 

GreenSox does have a point...if it wasn't for that stupid "all in" year in 2015, there wouldn't have been the need to push Rodon to start so quickly at the big league level. There are some possible parallels right now with Gordon Beckham's 2009 and 2010 seasons.

 

So the reason for the push wasn't because his change-up was ready, it was because of the Boras/free agency timetable.

 

(Interestingly, Nola also has been disappointing after his very strong start to 2016...so having passed on Rodon NOT to deal with Boras wouldn't have necessarily worked here either, as Nola was always the guy with the higher floor but lower, 2/3 starter, ceiling.)

 

But we'll never know how much more complete a pitcher Rodon would have been...we simply know from watching him that Rodon doesn't have much trust in his offspeed stuff, and/or hasn't learned a way to let up on his slider to give him another version of that pitch and to create that consistent 10+ mph differential off his fastball. What we're often getting now are low 90's fastballs with a mid 80's slider and that 5-7 differential just isn't working at all. Not when he won't or can't throw a curve/change/Sale slurve in the low 80's/upper 70's.

 

There wasn't a need. There was an agreement to move him quickly as a part of his signing for what he signed for.

 

[GreenSox]

Most teams will take a pitcher like fulmer and start him if nothing else to huild his arm up to handle an MLB pen load. The upside could be that he ends up bring a starter.

Fulmer was a top 10 pick. Starter should be the expectation, not the upside. Winning organizations do not use top 10 picks for bullpen expectations. Sox passed on best college hitter in the draft, so I certainly hope that 3 or above Starter was and is the expectation.

 

Bullpen for #26 is dubious proposition itself, But for a top 10, it's ridiculous.

 

There wasn't a need. There was an agreement to move him quickly as a part of his signing for what he signed for.

Then pick someone else.

As said above, it's unreasonable to expect him to be an ace right now. But the clock is still ticking. The value of 6 years of a top of the rotation guy, is now down to 3 or 4 because 2 or 3 years of service time are used for development.

 

And, at least in 2015, he should have been used in Chicago like he would have been used in the minors...development, including getting that change-up fixed as the priority over getting the next guy out. But that's hard to do in the majors. And it wasn't done. And it's understandable. Major league coaches are there to help pitchers get the next batter out...not to develop for 2 years from now.

 

And you wonder why I'm frustrated with this front office?

Edited July 6, 2016 by GreenSox

[caulfield12]

There wasn't a need. There was an agreement to move him quickly as a part of his signing for what he signed for.

 

 

All I remember is that all the conversation that first year was about developing that change-up to make it a legit #3 pitch.

 

What happened there?

 

Is there an interview with Hasler/JR Perdew/Burns, etc., where the "stall" on that pitch happened and why he wasn't taking to it as previously planned...?

[GGajewski18]

Fulmer was a top 10 pick. Starter should be the expectation, not the upside. Winning organizations do not use top 10 picks for bullpen expectations. Sox passed on best college hitter in the draft, so I certainly hope that 3 or above Starter was and is the expectation.

 

Bullpen for #26 is dubious proposition itself, But for a top 10, it's ridiculous.

 

Are you talking about Ian Happ? I think Swanson, Bregman, and Benintendi are a lot better than Happ.

[Dick Allen]

Instant gratification is rare in MLB. David Price is a guy Rodon has been compared to often. He struggled his first full year in TB, then took off. It's coming with Rodon, but it is weird that those who want total rebuilds have zero patience.

[Balta1701]

Instant gratification is rare in MLB. David Price is a guy Rodon has been compared to often. He struggled his first full year in TB, then took off. It's coming with Rodon, but it is weird that those who want total rebuilds have zero patience.

Well, to be fair, part of the reason to have zero patience is that the organization keeps saying that this guy is ready to be the #3 starter on a team challenging for the central this year (lots of exclamation points!!!!) and then makes decisions based on that.

 

Anyway, one of the more interesting comments I saw from Yankee broadcasting last night is that for Rodon, every pitch is hard, harder, hardest. Both Rodon and Price came up throwing a fastball that averaged 93 mph, but Rodon's slider is 2 mph faster than Price's average slider, so the difference between the pitches is less. On top of that, when Price started having success in his 2nd full year he was mixing in a curveball in the upper 70s (and a changeup on occasion as well, or at least pitch-FX is thinking it's a changeup even though it matched his slider in velocity). It'll be interesting to see if Rodon can find that kind of success without something that has a bigger velocity difference from his fastball - right now if his fastball and slider aren't both on, then there's nothing in his arsenal that forces the batter to speed up or slow down.

[caulfield12]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/28958/david-price

 

 

This is like your Ventura would be a HoF manager with the 2016 Cleveland Indians or 2015 Royals argument.

 

Rodon has 226 IP now and has surrendered 227 hits. His ERA's hovering just a bit below 4 career-wise (4.05 now, 1.5ish WHIP).

 

For your comparison to work, for Rodon to get anywhere near Price's second full year in the big leagues (see stats above), he's going to need to put up a 2.00-2.25 ERA for the remainder of the season. Price's walks were way up, but you can also see he was +40 in terms of IP/H ratio. Carlos is at -17. Carlos' better control isn't enough to offset those IP/H ratios.

 

For that full second season, he recorded a 4.4 WAR. Then slipped to 2.4, then 6.4. So it averaged out to 4.4 (overall) for those 2nd-4th years in the big leagues.

 

So we've got 1.6 WAR, then 0.6 right now for Rodon. Let's just say he's got to be one of the five best pitchers in the AL from here on out to catch up with David Price and get to a 4+ WAR, let alone at least a 3 on the season.

 

 

 

 

[GreenSox]

Instant gratification is rare in MLB. David Price is a guy Rodon has been compared to often. He struggled his first full year in TB, then took off. It's coming with Rodon, but it is weird that those who want total rebuilds have zero patience.

it's the Sox who were impatient by rushing him up*. That's the annoyance.

 

*(or maybe Boras made Hahn do it - whatever).

[caulfield12]

Well, to be fair, part of the reason to have zero patience is that the organization keeps saying that this guy is ready to be the #3 starter on a team challenging for the central this year (lots of exclamation points!!!!) and then makes decisions based on that.

 

Anyway, one of the more interesting comments I saw from Yankee broadcasting last night is that for Rodon, every pitch is hard, harder, hardest. Both Rodon and Price came up throwing a fastball that averaged 93 mph, but Rodon's slider is 2 mph faster than Price's average slider, so the difference between the pitches is less. On top of that, when Price started having success in his 2nd full year he was mixing in a curveball in the upper 70s (and a changeup on occasion as well, or at least pitch-FX is thinking it's a changeup even though it matched his slider in velocity). It'll be interesting to see if Rodon can find that kind of success without something that has a bigger velocity difference from his fastball - right now if his fastball and slider aren't both on, then there's nothing in his arsenal that forces the batter to speed up or slow down.

 

Yes, it was their female radio broadcaster who started going off on that point...like it was the most obvious thing in the world (which it kinda is).

 

Where's the change/curve and 10+ MPH differential that's ideal? Why is everything hard? Why isn't he throwing his best fastball when he has shown time and time again he can throw 94-98 MPH in games even where/when he's around 90-110 pitches earlier in the year. It's not a stamina or pitching deeper into games point.

 

And he's not getting significantly better command/location in the strike zone at the lower speeds.

 

Farmer and DJ have both been going off about this issue pretty much all season long, but it still hasn't changed at all.

 

Not that it's their job to "fix" Rodon.

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Yes, it was their female radio broadcaster who started going off on that point...like it was the most obvious thing in the world (which it kinda is).

 

Where's the change/curve and 10+ MPH differential that's ideal? Why is everything hard? Why isn't he throwing his best fastball when he has shown time and time again he can throw 94-98 MPH in games even where/when he's around 90-110 pitches earlier in the year. It's not a stamina or pitching deeper into games point.

 

And he's not getting significantly better command/location in the strike zone at the lower speeds.

 

Farmer and DJ have both been going off about this issue pretty much all season long, but it still hasn't changed at all.

 

Not that it's their job to "fix" Rodon.

 

If everyone in the organization is talking about it, there is a pretty good chance that means Rodon isn't listening to the people who who were telling him that long before people started talking about it publicly.

[Balta1701]

Yes, it was their female radio broadcaster who started going off on that point...like it was the most obvious thing in the world (which it kinda is).

 

Where's the change/curve and 10+ MPH differential that's ideal? Why is everything hard? Why isn't he throwing his best fastball when he has shown time and time again he can throw 94-98 MPH in games even where/when he's around 90-110 pitches earlier in the year. It's not a stamina or pitching deeper into games point.

 

And he's not getting significantly better command/location in the strike zone at the lower speeds.

 

Farmer and DJ have both been going off about this issue pretty much all season long, but it still hasn't changed at all.

 

Not that it's their job to "fix" Rodon.

Most guys who can top out at 98 don't throw 98 with every pitch. David Price was brought up as an example a second ago - his best fastball his first 5 years in the league was always 98-99, but his average fastball was 93-95.

[Balta1701]

Btw, no one pointed this out in here yet, Burdi pitched this afternoon for BHam.

 

His line: 0 IP, 1 H, 4 BB, 4 ER (ERA is currently infinite, presumably some of those runs scored after taken out).

[Dick Allen]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/28958/david-price

 

 

This is like your Ventura would be a HoF manager with the 2016 Cleveland Indians or 2015 Royals argument.

 

Rodon has 226 IP now and has surrendered 227 hits. His ERA's hovering just a bit below 4 career-wise (4.05 now, 1.5ish WHIP).

 

For your comparison to work, for Rodon to get anywhere near Price's second full year in the big leagues (see stats above), he's going to need to put up a 2.00-2.25 ERA for the remainder of the season. Price's walks were way up, but you can also see he was +40 in terms of IP/H ratio. Carlos is at -17. Carlos' better control isn't enough to offset those IP/H ratios.

 

For that full second season, he recorded a 4.4 WAR. Then slipped to 2.4, then 6.4. So it averaged out to 4.4 (overall) for those 2nd-4th years in the big leagues.

 

So we've got 1.6 WAR, then 0.6 right now for Rodon. Let's just say he's got to be one of the five best pitchers in the AL from here on out to catch up with David Price and get to a 4+ WAR, let alone at least a 3 on the season.

Carlos Rodon got rocked, you should be doing an Irish jig. We will see where he is at at the end of the season. You always judge White Sox when they are struggling, and players on other teams when they are at their hottest.

 

Besides, wouldn't this be an indictment on your boy Coop? You aren't going to tell me I was right all along about him are you?

[Kyyle23]

Btw, no one pointed this out in here yet, Burdi pitched this afternoon for BHam.

 

His line: 0 IP, 1 H, 4 BB, 4 ER (ERA is currently infinite, presumably some of those runs scored after taken out).

 

I think this should also be mentioned, from Scott merkin

 

Fulmer last 3 starts: 19 IP, 10 H, 2 ER, 9 BB, 22 K. Fulmer has 46 strikeouts in last 35 innings.

[Chicago White Sox]

I think this should also be mentioned, from Scott merkin

 

Fulmer last 3 starts: 19 IP, 10 H, 2 ER, 9 BB, 22 K. Fulmer has 46 strikeouts in last 35 innings.

Still needs to cut down on the walks, but amazing progress nonetheless.

[caulfield12]

Most guys who can top out at 98 don't throw 98 with every pitch. David Price was brought up as an example a second ago - his best fastball his first 5 years in the league was always 98-99, but his average fastball was 93-95.

 

 

Yeah, but there's a "cluster."

 

When Rodon's at his best, he's throwing 95-98 MPH fastballs, with 94 being the "middle ground" range.

 

When he's been getting absolutely hammered with the fastball (and usually, it's first pitch/earlier in games)....it's almost always at 90-93 MPH, but specifically 92-93 MPH, at least since the first month of the season.

 

It has been this same exact trend over and over and over again.

 

Nobody wants Rodon to (over)throw 97-99 and ruin his arm/shoulder. That's not the point.

 

Chris Sale can get away with this same exact strategy because of his slurve, different arm angles and especially having that change-up available in his arsenal. He certainly has the ability to pitch confidently when behind in the count, you can understand why Rodon hasn't/doesn't looking at his pitch selection (unless we want to blame all this on the catchers/Cooper.)

Edited July 6, 2016 by caulfield12

[Y2Jimmy0]

Rodon has poor command. That's the issue. He has a devastating wipeout slider but if he's behind in the count, he can't throw it. This is technically year 1 of control for Rodon. The White Sox have him for 5 more seasons after this one and he becomes a fee agent after 2021 at age 28. He's a mid rotation starter that spent no time in the minors and he has TOR starter upside. People expected too much too soon, myself included.